Catholic Faith Vs Citizenship...

[CatherineM]

Had family members fight in every one of those. Bummer.

[picchick]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1600601' date='Jul 15 2008, 06:09 PM']Iraq War
Desert Storm
Vietnam War
American Civil War
American Revolution
Cold War


Just to name a few.[/quote]


Whoa.....American Revolution????? Civil War?????

Without the American Revolution we would not be the free country we are today. Without the Civil War we would be a nation still separated. Salvery (although this was not the main reason for war) may still be ok today.

In response to Havok, Hassan, and Deb:
God is my all...I get everything from him. My country comes from God. True, God is not in the constitution. I know that "under God" is from the pledge. I never thought differently. Do you guys honestly think I love my country because of the bad things that the PEOPLE of the country did? No. I love my country because I don't have to hide the fact that I am Catholic for fear of being murdered by the government. I am able to go anywhere I choose and admire what God has given me. Remember that the Church has a past too, not as horrible as other pasts but that does not mean I love the sacraments, the hierarchy or anything else just as less. Again, whether my government and the citizens recognize it or not...they owe everything to God and therefore are under God. This is why I love my country because it is under God.

This is the last that I am going to post on this. I obviously am not doing a good enough job expaining what I am feeling. I do not understand why my feelings are under critique when USAirways said something sorta similar....but oh well. If there is anything else I can make clearer you can always PM me.

God Bless,
Meg

Edited July 15, 2008 by picchick

[Winchester]

Catholic Texan American.

[havok579257]

[quote name='picchick' post='1600635' date='Jul 15 2008, 06:43 PM']Whoa.....American Revolution????? Civil War?????

Without the American Revolution we would not be the free country we are today. Without the Civil War we would be a nation still separated. Salvery (although this was not the main reason for war) may still be ok today.

In response to Havok, Hassan, and Deb:
God is my all...I get everything from him. My country comes from God. True, God is not in the constitution. I know that "under God" is from the pledge. I never thought differently. Do you guys honestly think I love my country because of the bad things that the PEOPLE of the country did? No. I love my country because I don't have to hide the fact that I am Catholic for fear of being murdered by the government. I am able to go anywhere I choose and admire what God has given me. Remember that the Church has a past too, not as horrible as other pasts but that does not mean I love the sacraments, the hierarchy or anything else just as less. Again, whether my government and the citizens recognize it or not...they owe everything to God and therefore are under God. This is why I love my country because it is under God.

This is the last that I am going to post on this. I obviously am not doing a good enough job expaining what I am feeling. I do not understand why my feelings are under critique when USAirways said something sorta similar....but oh well. If there is anything else I can make clearer you can always PM me.

God Bless,
Meg[/quote]


The ends do NOT justify the means.

Do you know why the Civil War even happened in the first place? Its was NOT due to slavery. The south wanted to succed from the USA and become their own country. The north did not want the USA to be seperated so they went to war. Yes, by the north winning slavery was ended, but that was never the intention of the civil war. So how can a war with selfish intentions ever be considered right?

The American Revolution is even worse. It was never about freedom at first. It was simply about the fact that American's did not want to pay taxes to the British. That's it. Sure, in the end we won our freedom, but again I ask, do selfish intentions to start a war ever be considered good?

The ends due not justify the means. There was positives to comne out of the war, but the intentions were not good, they were selfish.

I never questioned your feelings for your country or God, I simply made the comment, that most wars are evil and one should not be picking sides and instead we should NOT be having wars unless we are fighting pure evil, like in WWII.

[picchick]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1600746' date='Jul 15 2008, 09:53 PM']The ends do NOT justify the means.

Do you know why the Civil War even happened in the first place? Its was NOT due to slavery. The south wanted to succed from the USA and become their own country. The north did not want the USA to be seperated so they went to war. Yes, by the north winning slavery was ended, but that was never the intention of the civil war.[/quote]

Thus my statement how slavery was not the main reason for the civil war. It was state rights really. The southern end wanted more of a local government and less of a strong central government. They were use to their "county" governments (I think that was the proper term) rather than people in Washington DC deciding things for them.

[quote]The American Revolution is even worse. It was never about freedom at first. It was simply about the fact that American's did not want to pay taxes to the British. That's it. Sure, in the end we won our freedom, but again I ask, do selfish intentions to start a war ever be considered good?[/quote]
Dude, I know this. I had my history classes. But the taxes meant that we had to serve under a British government. British soldiers invaded colony homes. They didn't need permission. They could stay at whatever house they wanted. It wasn't just about taxes. In what I learned it was a combination of all of the above, lack of privacy, no freedom of speech, and the taxes among other things. It was not only the taxes.
[quote name='havok579257' post='1600746' date='Jul 15 2008, 09:53 PM']I never questioned your feelings for your country or God, I simply made the comment, that most wars are evil and one should not be picking sides and instead we should NOT be having wars unless we are fighting pure evil, like in WWII.[/quote]

It looked like it was going in like with Hassan and Deb...I apologize, I read too much into what you were saying.

Meg

[picchick]

You know...in thinking about this more and more I realized that I maybe didn't make it clear enough.

God is first...always. My thought about country is this: my country was made by God. So if I cannot deny God how can I deny the thing He created?

However, if I gun were put to my head and someone said, "Pick....now." I'd choose God of course.

Sorry for all the confusion or scandal I may have caused.

Meg

[Justin86]

I believe in God, Family , and Country. In that order.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1599991' date='Jul 14 2008, 03:31 PM']Did he also wipe out the various Native American Populations with small pox laced blankets and insert the clause that slaves were 3/5ths of a person?[/quote]


the mythical (yet generally accepted) blankets

[Norseman82]

Here's the way I look at it.

We have a first amendment to protect our rights as Catholics. If that amendment is not honored, we have the second amendment. Thank you, Heller.

[Barbarus]

John Courtney Murray, who was highly influential in Vatican II, argued that Catholics make the best Americans. While some of his optimism about the nature of public discourse is a bit misplaced, I think his basic premise is right (and so, apparently, did the Council). Catholics have a faith open to dialogue with anyone, and should be able to bring this to the public square and be able to reasonably and eloquently present this faith. I think we have several examples of this now in influential positions in the U.S.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1599991' date='Jul 14 2008, 02:31 PM']...and insert the clause that slaves were 3/5ths of a person?[/quote]
[hijack]Actually, the "3/5 clause" was a good thing. As you may know, the number of members of the House of Representatives in the US Congress is determined based on each state's population. In order to limit the number of Representatives allocated to the Slave States, which wanted slaves to be counted in order to determine population but which of course didn't allow slaves to vote, the 3/5 clause was used to reduce the population count of and hence number of Representatives allocated to the Slave States.[/hijack]

Catholic first.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1600746' date='Jul 15 2008, 09:53 PM']Do you know why the Civil War even happened in the first place? Its was NOT due to slavery. The south wanted to succed from the USA and become their own country. The north did not want the USA to be seperated so they went to war. Yes, by the north winning slavery was ended, but that was never the intention of the civil war. So how can a war with selfish intentions ever be considered right?[/quote]

Blood was not shed until the South attacked the North (Ft. Sumter), so it was a defensive war for the North.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1599995' date='Jul 14 2008, 03:36 PM']It was illegal for the clergy to wear their vestments in public until relatively recently wasn’t it?[/quote]

Correct. My HS history teacher recounts how he could not wear his collar in public in Mexico in the 1970s!

[havok579257]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1601037' date='Jul 16 2008, 11:06 AM']Blood was not shed until the South attacked the North (Ft. Sumter), so it was a defensive war for the North.[/quote]


Please tell me you don't believe that? Go research the Civil War and talk to many historians. The war was not a defensive war, it was not a war to end slavery, it was not altrustic means. The war's inentions were wrong.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1601129' date='Jul 16 2008, 01:21 PM']Please tell me you don't believe that? Go research the Civil War and talk to many historians. The war was not a defensive war, it was not a war to end slavery, it was not altrustic means. The war's inentions were wrong.[/quote]

The first shot of the Civil War is generally considered to be the South's attack on Fort Sumter, so ipso facto (as Archie Bunker would say) the South was the aggressor, not the North.