Catholic Faith Vs Citizenship...

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1599108' date='Jul 13 2008, 08:06 AM']Catholic First Irish second.

For those of you confused, he's referring to the Christero War. In which a stringently athiest and minority government ruled Mexico and began persecuting the Priesthood and Church in Mexico. The Church in Rome didn't want to cause too much dissent for fear of causing the fervently pious Mexican Peasentry from waging war on the government. Somewhere along the line an Athiest president began a heavy persecution of the clergy and the Mexican Peasentry rose up and a civil war broke out.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
is that when the Mexican martyrs come from? like Blessed Miguel Pro?

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1599970' date='Jul 14 2008, 02:44 PM']+J.M.J.+
is that when the Mexican martyrs come from? like Blessed Miguel Pro?[/quote]
I don't know, but I'd guess thats likely.

[Hassan]

[quote name='picchick' post='1599054' date='Jul 13 2008, 01:06 AM']I don't think that I would ever have to pick my country or my God. God created my country and it owes God. They are inseparable in my mind. I support my country under God and for God.[/quote]

God founded the United States?

Did he also wipe out the various Native American Populations with small pox laced blankets and insert the clause that slaves were 3/5ths of a person?

That actually does sound like something you'd read in the Old Testament I guess

I don’t mean to be to sarcastic, I just don’t really understand what people mean by this.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1599142' date='Jul 13 2008, 10:27 AM']Picchick is referring to a sort of American Nationalism. In the idea of the American Nation, Yes. America is a Christian nation, (No, a nation is not defined by relative times, their governments are), hence her reasoning that America as a nation won't ever betray God, if it does, then to her, America is not America anymore.[/quote]

How would a country betray God?

[Deb]

It wasn't in the 1840's that Blessed Miguel lived. He was martyred in the 1920's. However, the churches in Mexico were still closed at that time and priests were in hiding. Interestingly enough, he was born in Guadelupe. The persecution of the Church took place most strongly in the 1920's. Amazing for a country that was 97% Catholic at the time. Several thousand Catholics and at least 50 priest were murdered during that time.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Deb

[Hassan]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1599108' date='Jul 13 2008, 09:06 AM']Catholic First Irish second.

For those of you confused, he's referring to the Christero War. In which a stringently athiest and minority government ruled Mexico and began persecuting the Priesthood and Church in Mexico. The Church in Rome didn't want to cause too much dissent for fear of causing the fervently pious Mexican Peasentry from waging war on the government. Somewhere along the line an Athiest president began a heavy persecution of the clergy and the Mexican Peasentry rose up and a civil war broke out.[/quote]


It was illegal for the clergy to wear their vestments in public until relatively recently wasn’t it?

[Galloglasses]

In Mexico? I have no idea. (Btw, do you mean the vestments they were at Mass or their standard Black Shirt and Pants/Cossack + Roman Collar?) As far as I'm aware the Government in Mexico is still socialist, (I don't focus much on the History of the Americas)

[Deb]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1599964' date='Jul 14 2008, 02:30 PM']How about NOT fighting in the war seeing as it was wrong. Most wars are fought for the wrong reasons.[/quote]


Which war was wrong?

[Galloglasses]

I think he means the Iraq War. For the Record, the Magisterium is out on deciding its stance on the war so Catholics have free reign to argue over it.

The Afghanistan War cannot be said to be unjustified however, the Taliban did claim responsability for 9/11

[Hassan]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1600001' date='Jul 14 2008, 02:45 PM']I think he means the Iraq War. For the Record, the Magisterium is out on deciding its stance on the war so Catholics have free reign to argue over it.

The Afghanistan War cannot be said to be unjustified however, the Taliban did claim responsability for 9/11[/quote]

Sure they can. The Afghan war was motivated by a blood lust in the nation after the attacks. And the Taliban did not claim responsibility nor did they refuse to turn over Bin Laden(sort of). I believe they demanded to see our evidence against him, and said they could not turn him over to a Kafur state. They did offer to export him to a third party Shariah court. Given the fact that even the leader of Hezbollah condemned Bin Laden's targeting of civilians I think we should have perhaps considered this(it retrospect it looks attractive, given Mr. Bin Laden’s present status in the developing world and his success in evading our forces thus far). We should have at least had a national discussion about it. While the bombs made cool fireworks on TV, we should have done a better job o remembering that real people liven there, not just abstractions who exist so we can "light up their sky like a fourth of July" and "put a boot up their ass"(to quote our modern Shakespeare Mr. Keith)

I understand why we wanted revenge after seeing the horrors of that day. I did too, and do not exempt myself from criticism. I was in Seventh grade when the buildings were hit and still remember the day vividly.

I think that there could have been a just response to the Taliban attacks; however a war for revenge is not compatible with Christian principals so far as I can tell. Did we exhaust all avenues to arrive at a peaceful resolution before attacks and killing quite a few civilians? I really don't think so.

Not that I have any love loss for the Taliban.

I think that an invasion of Afghanistan could have been reconciled with the Church's teachings on Just War doctrine, but a big factor in the Afghan invasion was a thirst for revenge. I remember the rhetoric.

Both Pope's have condemned the Iraq war so far as I know. I don't see how you can possibly justify that war with Just war Principals. You say the Magisterium is still out, I was under the impression both Pope's had denounced it, but I could be wrong.

[Deb]

The Iraq war is not a just war. We had no more reason to invade them than we did a lot of much worse countries around the globe. It all comes down to oil and a foothold in the Middle East. Our government has managed to screw that up while they were at it.

I thought we were talking about the persecution of Catholics in Mexico, that war.

[CatherineM]

My Godmother was born in Guadalupe, and her family moved to the US in 1923. I guess that was probably why.

[dominicansoul]

Gallo, I think you are thinking of what happened in Mexico during the early part of the 20th century, when the atheists took power in Mexico and began a deadly persecution of the Catholic Church. What is being referred to at the very beginning of this topic is when Santa Anna was battling the pre-dominantly Masonic-American army for Texas. Irish battalions made up of many European ex-patriates were called into service by the American army to do battle against the Mexican army. When Santa Ana heard of these battalions, he sent them a telegram telling them they should fight on Mexico's side, seeing that they were "Catholic brothers" and it was wrong for the Irish to fight alongside those anglo-Protestants. The Irish decided to go with the Mexicans, because, yes, the Anglos were not Catholic, they were very anti-Catholic, and they bashed the Irish all the time. In fact, the battle of the Alamo has always been taught in American schools to make it out like the Mexicans were the bad guys, when in fact they were just defending their country. Texas was Mexico at the time. I hate it when I go to the Alamo in San Antonio (which, by the way was a Catholic chapel before the Anglo army used it as a defensive fort,) and I see the Masonic emblem emblazoned on the outside wall of the Alamo.

In the end, the Mexican army was defeated, every member of the Irish battalion still surviving at the end of the battles were hanged for treason.

They were known as the "San Patricios", and for years were looked upon as traitors of America....but in Mexico and for many Mexican-Americans...they were viewed as heroes.

I believe there is a movie out about this, but it was not played here in our country...(I wonder why?) Oh yeah, it was called "One Man's Hero" and it starred Tom Berenger...

Edited July 15, 2008 by dominicansoul

[Galloglasses]

Ah, thats makes a whole lot more sense now.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Deb' post='1599997' date='Jul 14 2008, 03:42 PM']Which war was wrong?[/quote]


Iraq War
Desert Storm
Vietnam War
American Civil War
American Revolution
Cold War


Just to name a few.