DeoOptimoMaximo Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Hey Phamily, Just doing some research online... saw the story of the St. Patrick's Battalion, composed of 200 Catholic Irishmen who deserted the US Army because of Protestant/Atheist persecution during the Mexican War (1840's) to fight for Catholic Mexico... It started me thinking... what would u have done? what about Catholic American vs American Catholic... as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 [quote name='DeoOptimoMaximo' post='1598983' date='Jul 13 2008, 12:05 AM']Hey Phamily, Just doing some research online... saw the story of the St. Patrick's Battalion, composed of 200 Catholic Irishmen who deserted the US Army because of Protestant/Atheist persecution during the Mexican War (1840's) to fight for Catholic Mexico... It started me thinking... what would u have done? what about Catholic American vs American Catholic... as well?[/quote] I am Catholic first and American second. I don't know enough about the situation you've referred to, but regardless, my answer would be the same: if there's a discrepensy between being Catholic and being American, I am Catholic first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1598986' date='Jul 12 2008, 10:18 PM']I am Catholic first and American second.[/quote] I love my country, but I love my Church more. If I had to pick...well, suffice to say, it wouldn't be hard for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 I don't think that I would ever have to pick my country or my God. God created my country and it owes God. They are inseparable in my mind. I support my country under God and for God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 My position can be summed up by a phrase taken from a 19th century hymn: [size=3][i]Crowns and thrones may perish, kingdoms rise and wane, But the Church of Jesus constant will remain.[/i][/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galloglasses Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Catholic First Irish second. For those of you confused, he's referring to the Christero War. In which a stringently athiest and minority government ruled Mexico and began persecuting the Priesthood and Church in Mexico. The Church in Rome didn't want to cause too much dissent for fear of causing the fervently pious Mexican Peasentry from waging war on the government. Somewhere along the line an Athiest president began a heavy persecution of the clergy and the Mexican Peasentry rose up and a civil war broke out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 [quote name='picchick' post='1599054' date='Jul 13 2008, 02:06 AM']I don't think that I would ever have to pick my country or my God. God created my country and it owes God. They are inseparable in my mind. I support my country under God and for God.[/quote] Don't be so sure that you will never have to make a choice. God may have had a hand in this country being created but what it has turned into is all man's will. If you take a good look at what is happening in this country you will see that owing God is not part of the mainstream thought process. Your country may start persecuting you for your faith and your God sooner than you think . Nothing should ever come before God nor even be coming close to the love of God. Not country, not family, not man, not anything of this world. I am a Catholic first and always. I am an American second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 [quote name='Deb' post='1599129' date='Jul 13 2008, 11:03 AM']Don't be so sure that you will never have to make a choice. God may have had a hand in this country being created but what it has turned into is all man's will. If you take a good look at what is happening in this country you will see that owing God is not part of the mainstream thought process. Your country may start persecuting you for your faith and your God sooner than you think . Nothing should ever come before God nor even be coming close to the love of God. Not country, not family, not man, not anything of this world. I am a Catholic first and always. I am an American second.[/quote] I guess I am thinking of country as something else. I might sound contradictory to my first statement right now so bear with me. America is one nation UNDER GOD. By that phrase we state that we are under God. Of course God comes first. But by being under God, we are inseparable from God. Whether people like it or not, they owe God. People in the governement and citizens will try to change America so that they do not need to owe God. However, this is going to cause our downfall. I love America for the principles that it was founded on. I love America not for the government or the laws that do not respect life at all stages. I do not love America for the people who want to take God out of the country. I love America for the fact that we are free. Yes, we are persecuted but we are free. I love America for the beauty of the land. God created this country so how can I not love something He created? I will always love America because AMERICA does not change with the politician in office. The government may persecute me for my beliefs but America cannot. Does this make any sense? Meg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galloglasses Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Picchick is referring to a sort of American Nationalism. In the idea of the American Nation, Yes. America is a Christian nation, (No, a nation is not defined by relative times, their governments are), hence her reasoning that America as a nation won't ever betray God, if it does, then to her, America is not America anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 My Dad told me a story about one of his Captains during WWII. West Pointer, war hero, who resigned his commission to go to Israel in 1947. He died there. My Dad said that if it had been Vatican City under siege, he might have done the same thing. Funny thing is, when we think about battles, we always visualize guns and tanks and soldiers. The real battles these days are ideological, legal, and moral. In a real way, the Vatican is under siege. It's just harder to figure out where and how to return fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishSalesian Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 (edited) [quote name='CatherineM' post='1599153' date='Jul 13 2008, 12:24 PM']My Dad told me a story about one of his Captains during WWII. West Pointer, war hero, who resigned his commission to go to Israel in 1947. He died there. My Dad said that if it had been Vatican City under siege, he might have done the same thing. Funny thing is, when we think about battles, we always visualize guns and tanks and soldiers. The real battles these days are ideological, legal, and moral. In a real way, the Vatican is under siege. It's just harder to figure out where and how to return fire.[/quote] I would be the first to go to the Vatican to defend it if it had ever come to a physical battle. But today the way to fight this intellectual battle, is to preach the Gospel at all times. Live, act, react in the Catholic way. Live faithfully the Catholic life, this, I think, is the best way to fight the battle against the Church. Edited July 13, 2008 by IrishSalesian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 [quote name='Galloglasses' post='1599142' date='Jul 13 2008, 11:27 AM']Picchick is referring to a sort of American Nationalism. In the idea of the American Nation, Yes. America is a Christian nation, (No, a nation is not defined by relative times, their governments are), hence her reasoning that America as a nation won't ever betray God, if it does, then to her, America is not America anymore.[/quote] Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galloglasses Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 You're welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 [quote name='picchick' post='1599137' date='Jul 13 2008, 11:18 AM']I guess I am thinking of country as something else. I might sound contradictory to my first statement right now so bear with me. America is one nation UNDER GOD. By that phrase we state that we are under God. Of course God comes first. But by being under God, we are inseparable from God. Whether people like it or not, they owe God. People in the governement and citizens will try to change America so that they do not need to owe God. However, this is going to cause our downfall. I love America for the principles that it was founded on. I love America not for the government or the laws that do not respect life at all stages. I do not love America for the people who want to take God out of the country. I love America for the fact that we are free. Yes, we are persecuted but we are free. I love America for the beauty of the land. God created this country so how can I not love something He created? I will always love America because AMERICA does not change with the politician in office. The government may persecute me for my beliefs but America cannot. Does this make any sense? Meg[/quote] It makes sense in that you are saying you love the physical land that is America. I think everyone who lives in this country loves the physical beauty of America. Pretty much every place on earth has incredible physical beauty though. Loving God for all of his creation is part of our gratitude to the Lord and yes, we all owe him. We do owe the Lord for our souls showing up in the Country. We are here by the grace of God and our birth. Our freedom as an independent country was not brought about because we were concerned with God, it came about because we no longer wanted to be taxed without being represented. (much like it is here today) The name of GOD appears nowhere in our constitution at all. The "Under God" you are quoting is from the pledge of allegiance and those two words were not added to it until 1954. So, actually, if people paid any attention to our constitution, they would find no obligation to owe God for anything regarding our country or our govenment. That is what has made it so easy for those who are Godless to pervert the moral fabric of our country so easily. Those who study history would know that God was in the lives of those who freed us and who wrote our constitution (not all of them) yet many of them did not live by God as we would, evidenced by the lack of rights for women, children or anyone other than white males. So, I guess for me, I can only see myself as a Catholic first and foremost. I owe many of the things I enjoy in the country to those who fought and died for it, those who represented me honestly and openly and those who share my love and faith in God but, I owe every single thing I have and am and will be to the Grace of God and there is no country anywhere involved in that. So, back to the question that was posed. How would you choose if you had to fight either for God and against your country and vice versa? I kind of wonder why we are not organized and prepared to fight against our country to stop abortion? One march a year on Washington and a lot of letters have done nothing. How much longer do we live like this? What shall we do when the Church is told they MUST marry same sexes and can never say a word against the practice of homosexuality? That will be our first battle. How will we respond? Will we take to the streets or will we just blog about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 How about NOT fighting in the war seeing as it was wrong. Most wars are fought for the wrong reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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