Which Is The Fraud?

[pan!c139]

Hmmm......I dunno.....

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='salterrae' post='1599204' date='Jul 13 2008, 01:41 PM']JM + JT

Looks more like the carpals to me.

But that wouldn't be right since, as the Lamb, his bones were supposed to remain unbroken, correct?[/quote]


The Lord was nailed through both his hand and his wrist. And there were no broken bones. You are correct.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='JustJ' post='1599275' date='Jul 13 2008, 05:36 PM']The shroud has been disproved many times over.

As for the hands thing, that wouldn't have held a body on the cross. I guess one might argue that it's symbolic more than literal, though, so I've got no argument against this case of Stigmata right now.[/quote]
Wrong. THe shoud has never been disproven. It contains the pollen of flowers from Jerusalem on 1st century cloth only woven by jews of a certain area. It corresponds to the Sudarium found in another church.

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1601138' date='Jul 16 2008, 02:26 PM']The Lord was nailed through both his hand and his wrist. And there were no broken bones. You are correct.[/quote]


Errr...I thought we don't know the exact spot that Jesus was nailed to the cross. And unless you were there (which I doubt) I wouldn't hold your word as the final say.

How Jesus was actually hung, in referance to the stigmata is kinda like saying that everyone has the exact same "pit of the stomach" feeling when they get bad news.

A saint, a dr of the church, I forget who now, once questioned another saint's stigmata marks saying that she truly had the stigmata and the priest must be pretending. Later on Jesus appeared to her and said that stigmata was a gift through devotion to him, not an outward statement of the crucifixion, becuase his passion goes beyond the physical scars he bore to the inward weight of all the sins he carried.

Of course, that was a private revelation. So you're not required to believe it anyway.

Jesus was a physical man who had a height and weight just like everyone else. How would you even start to measure the diameters for stigmata transfer if it was an exact science...ratio? porportion? distance? Would the nailholes be two inches big on a saint who had dainty little hands and only a four inch palm? What about on an seven inch palm? Is it always an inch from the thumb? and so on, you get the point. Stigmata is not about the physical, but rather the devotion.

[add]

[url="http://www.latimes.com/features/religion/la-na-turinside17-2008aug17,0,2258243.story"]findings[/url]

[font="Garamond"][size=4]The shroud is kept in the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Turin, Italy.[/size][/font]

[font="Garamond"][size=4] John and Rebecca Jackson, a physicist who teaches at the University of Colorado, hypothesizes that contamination of the cloth by elevated levels of carbon monoxide skewed the 1988 carbon-14 dating by 1,300 years.[/size][/font]

[font="Garamond"][size=4]Oxford has agreed to help them reexamine the findings (if permitted by the Vatican).[/size][/font]

[font="Garamond"][size=4]"There is a lot of other evidence that suggests to many that the shroud is older than the radiocarbon dates allow, and so further research is certainly needed," says a statement on his website.[/size][/font]

[mortify]

Heh...

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1598407' date='Jul 12 2008, 12:24 AM'][size=3]The Shroud of Turin[/size]
[img]http://z.about.com/d/paranormal/1/7/M/V/1/shroud-of-turin.jpg[/img]

[size=3]The Stigmata[/size]
[img]http://s3.amazonaws.com/bloghoax/PadrePio.jpg[/img]

One Shows the wonds of Christ on the hands, the other on the wrists.


Seems odd
[/quote]

Easy, which one if the fraud. The wounds in the hand.

If to took someone, Put a nail through his palm, and held him 15-20 feet in the air, which was customary back then, the hand would be torn apart and half his hand would be gone on both hand, and would probably have the hands removed from the nail.

However, if you put a nail through someone's wrist, there is bones to the top and bottom. And it is much more torturous, to have you arms get tired while gravity pulls at them, move them, only for a nail agrivating the bones in your arms, because the bones keep you in place!

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1630324' date='Aug 18 2008, 12:29 AM']Easy, which one if the fraud. The wounds in the hand.

If to took someone, Put a nail through his palm, and held him 15-20 feet in the air, which was customary back then, the hand would be torn apart and half his hand would be gone on both hand, and would probably have the hands removed from the nail.[/quote]

What if their wrists/forearms are firmly tied to the Cross? The two thieves were customarily shown to be tied to the cross. And they stayed up there securely.

Edited August 18, 2008 by lilac_angel

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1630331' date='Aug 18 2008, 12:46 AM']What if their wrists/forearms are firmly tied to the Cross? The two thieves were customarily shown to be tied to the cross. And they stayed up there securely.[/quote]

You're not really understanding what I am saying. Yes, they could have been tied up.

But which would be more totureous?

The Romans were experts at this, and they wanted their victims to be tortured good on that Cross. Historically, the Romans wanted to make sure nobody would dissent from their rule. To demoralize people, they would put people on the cross. Now imagine, you have nails through your wrists, and every time you moved your arms because of exhaustion, or to straighten yourself, jolts of pain cascaded through your body. The screams of pain would make all those who listened obedient because they don't want the same. It is that imagine, that makes me feel more unworthy of Christ's love, because I am not worth that. He shouldn't have done that for me, because he didn't deserve that, and I am just a sinner. I don't deserve any kind of grace or love!

It makes his death even more dear to me, because of what he had to go through on the cross, the jolts of pain cascading through his body, as he straightened up to take a breath.

Edited August 18, 2008 by MakeYouThink

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1630334' date='Aug 18 2008, 01:56 AM']You're not really understanding what I am saying. Yes, they could have been tied up.

But which would be more totureous?

The Romans were experts at this, and they wanted their victims to be tortured good on that Cross. Historically, I would definitely go with through the wrists, because the Romans wanted to make sure people obeyed them. Hearing those crucified writhing in pain, every time they tried to move their arms, as they were trying to straighten to take a breath, that's cruel, and completely how I see how my lord had to die for me, and at the same time, would discourage dissidents![/quote]

No, I didn't misunderstand; I was just making sure you thought of that possibility. I don't necessarily embrace the rope view myself for Christ. But it doesn't necessarily make the saints' stigmatas frauds... people have experienced miraculous cures from Padre Pio, and he had the stigmata and all kinds of other gifts. People mentioned above that both can be legit and gave reasons why this is true.

Edited August 18, 2008 by lilac_angel

[add]

[quote name='mortify' post='1630196' date='Aug 17 2008, 10:55 PM']Heh...[/quote]

what is heh...?
[url="http://www.latimes.com/features/religion/la-na-turin17-2008aug17,0,4950965.story"]Visit My Website[/url]

[Innocent]

Has there been any further research on the claim that the words "Jesus" and "Nazarene" were found written on the Shroud, supposedly written by the executioner (a practice followed at the burial of all executed in Rome ) during the burial process? I faintly remember hearing this news some years back, but didn't hear any follow up to confirm the validity of this claim.

EDIT: Found a source that mentions this: [url="http://www.shroud.in/"]http://www.shroud.in/[/url]

[quote][b]How Can We be sure that the 'Man of the Shroud' is Jesus ?[/b]
The latest and most dramatic discoveries concern a piece of writing on the Shroud itself. For years, people had been asking why below and to the sides of the chin there are three clear and regular lines where no imprint is present. The Paris-based organisation CIERT (Centre International d’Etudes sur le Linceul de Turin, The international centre of studies on the Shroud of Turin), which I represent in Italy, has conducted studies in the most advanced institute in Europe for image analysis via computer, the Institut Optique d’Orsay, whose director is Professor André Marion. All official photographs of the Shroud were divided into tens of thousands of squares which were then given a corresponding optical density and transferred onto a visualisation programme. By means of an extremely advanced programme, some letters gradually began to emerge, in Latin and in Greek: under the chin, we find written ‘Jesus’ and on one side, ‘Nazarene’. What is the explanation for this? The ‘exactor mortis’ the centurion charged with ensuring the execution of the condemned, had drawn strips of ‘glue’ onto the cloth on which he would write the name of the deceased with a red liquid. Where these strips were drawn, the cloth was impermeable and would not, therefore, be subject to the chemical process which subsequently formed the imprint.[/quote]

Edited November 26, 2008 by Innocent

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Innocent' post='1711357' date='Nov 26 2008, 08:49 AM']Has there been any further research on the claim that the words "Jesus" and "Nazarene" were found written on the Shroud, supposedly written by the executioner (a practice followed at the burial of all executed in Rome ) during the burial process? I faintly remember hearing this news some years back, but didn't hear any follow up to confirm the validity of this claim.

EDIT: Found a source that mentions this: [url="http://www.shroud.in/"]http://www.shroud.in/[/url][/quote]

first time i've ever heard of that - not sure what to make of it; thanks for posting the link.