Which Is The Fraud?

[Hassan]

[size=3]The Shroud of Turin[/size]
[img]http://z.about.com/d/paranormal/1/7/M/V/1/shroud-of-turin.jpg[/img]

[size=3]The Stigmata[/size]
[img]http://s3.amazonaws.com/bloghoax/PadrePio.jpg[/img]

One Shows the wonds of Christ on the hands, the other on the wrists.


Seems odd

[mommas_boy]

I heard stated somewhere on these phorums that stigmata often appears on the bodies of saints corresponding to an icon or image in their home parish. This suggests a devotion to that image that manifests itself outwardly in the form of stigmata.

[Maggyie]

The Shroud of Turin is considered by scientists to be less likely to be "real." At least that is what I have heard.

However from what we now know of how the human body is arranged, Christ would have been nailed through the wrists rather than through the hands - a nail in the wrists can support the weight of the body, whereas a nail in the hands will simply pull through the hand. In other words the Shroud has the more correct representation.

It is important to recognize that phenomena such as stigmata are not meant to be exact replicas of what happened to Christ. For instance, some with the stigmata will bleed from the forehead where the crown of thorns would have been, others will not be marked in that way at all. Christ gives people the sign of the stigmata not as a history lesson on where His wounds are but as a reminder of His Passion and to increase the devotion and faith of His people.

Of course the Shroud of Turin has the same purpose.

Edited July 12, 2008 by Maggie

[Hassan]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1598417' date='Jul 12 2008, 12:30 AM']I heard stated somewhere on these phorums that stigmata often appears on the bodies of saints corresponding to an icon or image in their home parish. This suggests a devotion to that image that manifests itself outwardly in the form of stigmata.[/quote]

That's interesting.

[Selah]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1598426' date='Jul 12 2008, 02:37 AM']The Shroud of Turin is considered by scientists to be less likely to be "real." At least that is what I have heard.

[b]However from what we now know of how the human body is arranged, Christ would have been nailed through the wrists rather than through the hands - a nail in the wrists can support the weight of the body, whereas a nail in the hands will simply pull through the hand.[/b] In other words the Shroud has the more correct representation.[/quote]


That's a good point. Not sure how I feel about the stigmata, though.

[CatherineM]

I have also seen research done that Christ could have been nailed through the palm in a particular place, and the Romans would have been expert at what did and didn't work in crucifixions.

As to the Shroud, my dad told me once that it didn't matter if it was actually Christ or not. That over the centuries, the presence of devout people praying in front of it has made it holy. I think over the years I've seen dozens of shows on the Shroud, and what really stands out to me, it that even with our advanced technologies, we can't duplicate it.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1598510' date='Jul 12 2008, 09:25 AM']As to the Shroud, my dad told me once that it didn't matter if it was actually Christ or not. That over the centuries, the presence of devout people praying in front of it has made it holy. I think over the years I've seen dozens of shows on the Shroud, and what really stands out to me, it that even with our advanced technologies, we can't duplicate it.[/quote]

That's been my take on it as well. Worst case scenario: the shroud is a clever, masterful fake, but it still manages to increase devotion to Our Lord. At the end of the day, conversion is still the work of God, even if He converts through a fraud.

[salterrae]

JM + JT

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1598510' date='Jul 12 2008, 09:25 AM']I have also seen research done that Christ could have been nailed through the palm in a particular place, and the Romans would have been expert at what did and didn't work in crucifixions.[/quote]
I've heard that it could have been through the palms if Christ was [i]standing[/i] on that piece below his feet (my Theology teacher told us the name of it, but I've forgotten) rather than hanging on the cross.
But the whole thing about breaking the legs to suffocate them sort of disproves this scenario, since I think breathing would still have been possible if He was standing "comfortably" and not possible if He were hanging.

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1598426' date='Jul 12 2008, 08:37 AM']The Shroud of Turin is considered by scientists to be less likely to be "real." At least that is what I have heard.
Of course the Shroud of Turin has the same purpose.[/quote]

Interesting... I heard the opposite. For example the case of a scientist who converted from atheism to christianity after having examined it. Or the witness of a Russion professor who gave an excellent explanation on why the C16 test was not reliable in this case...

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Fr. Bruno' post='1598599' date='Jul 12 2008, 01:05 PM']Interesting... I heard the opposite. For example the case of a scientist who converted from atheism to christianity after having examined it. Or the witness of a Russion professor who gave an excellent explanation on why the C16 test was not reliable in this case...[/quote]

Hey Father, what reason did he give as to why the carbon dating wasn't reliable, (if you can remember the talk)?

Also, just an FYI, It's C-14, not C-16. Ok. The chemistry teacher in me is going to be quiet now and not correct priests, anymore.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1598426' date='Jul 12 2008, 12:37 AM']The Shroud of Turin is considered by scientists to be less likely to be "real." At least that is what I have heard.[/quote]

not sure which way you were going with that one.


[quote name='CatherineM' post='1598510' date='Jul 12 2008, 08:25 AM']I think over the years I've seen dozens of shows on the Shroud, and what really stands out to me, it that even with our advanced technologies, we can't duplicate it.[/quote]

Skip the shows (especially anything produced by A&E or the History Channel); i would recommend:

Ian Wilson's [u]The Shroud of Turin: The Burial Cloth of Jesus?[/u] (written prior to the best scientific tests, but presents a very plausible history of the shroud)

Mark Antonacci's [u]The Resurrection of the Shroud: New Scientific, Medical and Archeological Evidence[/u] (discredits the 1988 radio carbon testing)

[Fr. Bruno]

It seems quite normal to me that stigmata would appear on that place where the one who receives them believed them to be in Christ's case...
For centuries, people believed that the nails were put in the palms of the hands. At least, I've never seen any representation from the middle ages where the wounds are elsewhere (but I might be wrong). This is one of the reasons why I can't believe it's false : if it were just a human production, they probably would have shown the nails in the palms. I'd be glad to have some contradictory information to that.

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1598610' date='Jul 12 2008, 12:13 PM']Hey Father, what reason did he give as to why the carbon dating wasn't reliable, (if you can remember the talk)?

Also, just an FYI, It's C-14, not C-16. Ok. The chemistry teacher in me is going to be quiet now and not correct priests, anymore. [/quote]

I had heard something similiar, something along the lines of there being a fire where the shroud was housed, and the smoke caused some damage which would have messed with Carbon dating tests.

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1598610' date='Jul 12 2008, 08:13 PM']Hey Father, what reason did he give as to why the carbon dating wasn't reliable, (if you can remember the talk)?

Also, just an FYI, It's C-14, not C-16. Ok. The chemistry teacher in me is going to be quiet now and not correct priests, anymore. [/quote]


Thanks for correction ; I shoud read my posts more carefully before posting them...
Well it was years ago, and I can't remember all he said... but I think one of the things he mentioned was the fact that twice (if I remember well) the shroud was attacked by flames of fire... and that this modifies the radiation effect... or something like that. Sorry, I'm not only poor in chemistry, but also my English is somewhat unfit to explain these kind of things...
Does it make any sense ? If not, you should go to Moscow and discuss it with the guy over there...

[CatherineM]

When carbon dating a textile, it is very difficult to get a proper sample to test. Textiles tend to pick up pollen and dust along the way. In addition the Shroud had been in a fire, and if you know anything about carbon dating, it involves measuring decay rates, and something that has been burned has a different outcome than something that hasn't been. It's my understanding that they took the very small sample from next to the burned/repaired area. I suspect they figured that part was already marred, so no further harm could be done. No further requests for more samples have been granted, I suspect because of the controversy after the first one.