Home Schoolers Threaten Our Cultural Comfort

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1869155' date='May 17 2009, 12:19 AM']Sure. It is not a question of instantiation but proportion. In the case of home schooled kids, in my experience, it is more the norm.[/quote]

How much experience with home schooled children have you had?

[dominicansoul]

homeschoolers are less likely to be indoctrinated into the status quo...

i know many...most are very intelligent, sociable, well-rounded kids...

[Hassan]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1869748' date='May 17 2009, 09:16 PM']How much experience with home schooled children have you had?[/quote]


One of my best friends growing up was homescooled

[TotusTuusMaria]

so, i'd take that as your experience consists of your friend?

[Hassan]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1869819' date='May 17 2009, 09:12 PM']so, i'd take that as your experience consists of your friend?[/quote]




Although he and his sibblings were my closest connection.

[TotusTuusMaria]

ok, so one family.

Edited May 18, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[MithLuin]

Quit putting words in his mouth. His best friend is obviously the first person who comes to mind when he thinks of homeschoolers, just as my brother and brother-in-law are for me. That doesn't mean these are the only two people I've ever met who are homeschooled!

And even if all of us take the total of [i]all[/i] the people we've ever met who were homeschooled doesn't make it any more than anectotal...unless of course you happen to know hundreds of thousands of homeschoolers.

He admitted his experience was anecdotal; we'd do well to do likewise. If there was no difference between homeschooled kids and public school kids...then why not send kids to a public school? In other words, homeschool parents clearly think that they are creating a different environment to create a different outcome. Whether that outcome is positive or negative (overall) will depend on a lot of variables not covered by the blanket term 'homeschooling'.

I will say that the educational research suggests that when you adjust for socioeconomic status, public schools tend to do better than private or homeschooling, because of the resources available. But the demographics of homeschooling families is not necessarily at the bottom end of that scale, so they do well in most studies.


Back to the point of the thread. Parents homeschool their children because, for whatever reason, they think it's better for the kid than sending them to the local public (or private) school. This [i]does[/i] send a message about the opinion of the parents towards the educational system, and the editorial was perceptive to point it out. That being said, I think more people think this rejection of the status quo is nuts or silly than an actual threat to their way of life. But if homeschool families wonder why their neighbors view them as 'outsiders' - this does offer some insight into that.

If a parent wishes to harm a child, keeping that child out of the school system is one of the best ways to hide what it going on. Thus, it will always be possible to abuse the system, and the gov't should have a plan of what to do to detect such cases. I'm not advocating that they burst into people's homes and remove the kids - just that there is some follow through on making sure the children are learning. Yearly testing or submission of portfolios is what I am referring to. That will at least pick up the cases where the parent thought letting the kid play 'educational computer games' was the same thing as home schooling.

[TotusTuusMaria]

just noting that his experience does seem very minimal.

[princessgianna]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1869936' date='May 17 2009, 10:11 PM']If a parent wishes to harm a child, keeping that child out of the school system is one of the best ways to hide what it going on. Thus, it will always be possible to abuse the system, and the gov't should have a plan of what to do to detect such cases. I'm not advocating that they burst into people's homes and remove the kids - just that there is some follow through on making sure the children are learning. Yearly testing or submission of portfolios is what I am referring to. That will at least pick up the cases where the parent thought letting the kid play 'educational computer games' was the same thing as home schooling.[/quote]
Good point but what about the "The Child called It" He went to public school! And it still took the government years to get him out of that abusive situation with his mother.

Ok but now that's becoming a "you may home school but by our political qualifications and morals must be met"! Mandatory yearly testing is still pushing the government political liberal anti family agenda! That is wrong! Once you give them an inch they become the ruler!

And besides the government's job is [b]not[/b] to teach children and install moral! The government's job is to run the country NOT my life!

And a question for you- do children even learn in school!
In most other countries (particularly Japan/Asia) -our smart is their average.

Peace!

Edited May 18, 2009 by princessgianna

[Hassan]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1869975' date='May 17 2009, 10:56 PM']Good point but what about the "The Child called It" He went to public school! And it still took the government years to get him out of that abusive situation with his mother.[/quote]


That was a rather extraordionary case, of disputed authenticity, and even in the story it is the public school officials notice the abuse and rescuse him

[quote]Ok but now that's becoming a "you may home school but by our political qualifications and morals must be met"! Mandatory yearly testing is still pushing the government political liberal anti family agenda! That is wrong! Once you give them an inch they become the ruler!

And besides the government's job is [b]not[/b] to teach children and install moral! The government's job is to run the country NOT my life![/quote]

Yes it is. A country cannot be run without some degree of socialization and control over the private lives of the citizens. Besides that not even you actually beleive that seeing as you want the government to outlaw abortion. A good friend of mine (a different friend) was kept out of the public school system untill Middle School and taught by her parents and a local Madrasa. Her parents wanted her to learn Islamic values, not fall to the temptations of the Western world, be acadamically advanced et cetera and that is just fine. If they taugt her, as is happening in some countries in Europe, the home schooling was used to teach the child to be violently opposed to their famlies adopted country the government has a duty to step in.

If your parents want to education you or anyone in good Christian morals while personally overseeing your education that is fine and I wishe them all the best. I once knew a woman who was very Christian and homescooled her children. The family were peaceful but fundamentalist evangelicals who adamently rejected evolution and Darwinism, but her children were educated in it. They rejected, but understood, Darwinish and modern bilogy. The government does have a duty to you to insure that if your parents go that option you still recieve an upbringing and education which will allow you to theoretically function in the society once you are an adult.

[quote]And a question for you- do children even learn in school!
In most other countries (particularly Japan/Asia) -our smart is their average.

Peace![/quote]

How good do you think the edcation is in rural China? Vietnam? Cambodia?

There are serious problems with the American school system. However countries which outperform us also have important structurally different educational systems and demographics. A small, homogenous, rich fountry like Finland can have an excelent education system.

[MithLuin]

Considering my profession is a teacher in an American school, I can assure you, learning is occuring. I have read some of the research on the subject. So, while by no means an expert, I am not making up what I am saying.

The main factor affecting student achievement is socioeconomic status. Sad but true. No study can legitimately ignore that. Rather, other factors can be compared once that is adjusted for.

I did not say that all abusive parents homeschool - I said that homeschooling [i]may[/i] be used as a cloak to hide abuse - and has been. In my city, a guardian locked a child in her bedroom until she starved and/or died from being beaten with an electrical cord. Technically, she was a public school student, but it had been months since she attended. Social services was looking into it when the death occured. I also read 'A Boy Called It', and if I recall correctly, his school nurse played a role in identifying what was going on. Teachers and other school personel are required by law to report suspected abuse. In the case of a child who is homeschooled, when would this child come into contact with school personnel?

Standardized tests verify that the child can read and do math problems at the appropriate level. Please explain how this is pushing a particular agenda? Efforts are made to remove bias from the test - asking a child who has never seen an ox to identify the plural as oxen can be seen as...unfair.

The government obviously [i]does[/i] have a responsibility to provide its citizens with Free and Appropriate Public Education. If families choose not to make use of it, that is their right.

I am a high school science teacher. Not all parents would be qualified to or interested in teaching their children chemistry. If they want to send them to someone else to learn that, there's nothing wrong with that picture. Likewise with foreign language. If you don't happen to know one yourself, it would be rather difficult to pass that on to your child!

[Hassan]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1870029' date='May 17 2009, 11:55 PM']The main factor affecting student achievement is socioeconomic status. Sad but true. No study can legitimately ignore that. Rather, other factors can be compared once that is adjusted for.[/quote]


That is sadly true. My High School was mostly black from a bad part of town and the difference socio-economic level made was obvious. Not that the kids were any less bright than white students, but many didn't have an involved parent or a proper middle school education.

Sadly, while many teachers are great, many are also run down or simply unqualified (teaching in that school with bad pay would dampedn anyone's spirits. "Standard" kids were kind of given up on more or less. I did a few standar classes and the difference between them and Ap...like a whole different school. The standard classes the teacher was there basically to hand out tests and stop fights, AP classes were engaging with great teachers. Many standard classes seemed to be structured like that. Also sometimes teachers would sort of become complicit in failure. I had a friend in High School was was brilliant, I mean just super smart. I'd give him a ride home and we'd discuss anything from the war in Iraq to Nietzsche and Kant. But he came from a poor, messed up broken home and was a pot head. He was smarter than a lot of his teachers and could charm them out of comming down on him and basically manipulate them so they felt "cool" by laughing at his joks and about his being a slacker. He should have been going to Yale or Harvard, if that were determined by intelectual merit solely, last I checked he was looking to get a job stocking at Harris Teeter.

When I was little I tested very high in a few areas f the aptitude test things they give you. Highest was vocab or reading or something but not far below that was always science, where I scored in the 90%+ area. After I got done with Middle and early High School science I was done with science totally. But on the other hand I had an amazing government teacher. I remember the first day of AP Government he asked what was great about America. I responded with some cliche about the way everyone got a vote. He jumped down my throat and subjected me to a brutal Sorcatic examination as to why "just anyone" should be able to vote. He believed we would be unable to appreciate the American constitution truely until he made us rip it to pieces and then put it back togather. Everyone in the class but me were Seniors and so when a special bell rang for Seniors to leave early on Fridays I'd have to stay behind and we'd discuss philosophy and all sorts of things until I was able to go.

I guess my point is that public education is a mized bag and the teachers are as well. If I had a science teacher like MithLuin I'd probably be studying Math and Physics rather than Political Science and Russian. Unfortunatly I bombed on math and science teachers and hit gold with humanities teachers. I've had friend with run down humanities teachers but brilliant and engaging science teachers. Public school is sometimes a crapshoot.

[Hassan]

The same can be true at the University level. I had a friend who had some basic neurobiology class where the Professor had tenure and didn't care. He came in the first day of class, told them to read the book if they had any questions make an appointment during his office hours and he'd see them on the final. On the other hand there are amazing Professors who love what they do, and very good at it, and love imparting their knowledge. I had a Professor who once was the chancelor of Tehran University before he had to flee (he didn't go to Friday prayer and wore a tie, big no no's for that government). He had been all over the world from work with Kurds to being on the ground during the communist coup in Afghanistan before the USSR invaded. He is also a very kind, funny many who is humble about his extraordionary life and loves teaching students and telling stories.

And sometimes you don't know what the Professor is like because you really only meet the TA

[kafka]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1870040' date='May 18 2009, 01:12 AM']I guess my point is that public education is a mized bag and the teachers are as well. If I had a science teacher like MithLuin I'd probably be studying Math and Physics rather than Political Science and Russian. Unfortunatly I bombed on math and science teachers and hit gold with humanities teachers. I've had friend with run down humanities teachers but brilliant and engaging science teachers. Public school is sometimes a crapshoot.[/quote]
you two have a good conversation going.

It is funny, in high school I was given almost no humanities, they were looked down upon, and de-emphasized. Instead I took things like Statistics, AP Physics, Calculus, etc. only to find out a few years later that my true passion and talent lies in the humanities. Its funny, I realized one day when I was in my late teens that I wasnt even comprehending what I read. From that day on I decided to start using the dictionary, and well its never been quite the same since.

I guess I'm not making any point other than I agree that public education is a mixed bag.

[Hassan]

[quote name='kafka' post='1870047' date='May 18 2009, 01:24 AM']you two have a good conversation going.

It is funny, in high school I was given almost no humanities, they were looked down upon, and de-emphasized. Instead I took things like Statistics, AP Physics, Calculus, etc. only to find out a few years later that my true passion and talent lies in the humanities. Its funny, I realized one day when I was in my late teens that I wasnt even comprehending what I read. From that day on I decided to start using the dictionary, and well its never been quite the same since. [/quote]


I'll say


I didn't even plan on going to college. I wanted to join the Navy and get Sub duty.

I didn't get reinterested in academic stuff until the end of 10th grade.

Aquinas/ Maritain and Descart were my first loves.

How much people change in a short time

[quote]I guess I'm not making any point other than I agree that public education is a mixed bag.[/quote]




Hey Kafka, I don't know when your calling it a night but remember to keep your head up and stay in toutch with the larger world, drop by every now and again, and remember to swim for the shore while you pray