Franciscan University Households

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1595930' date='Jul 9 2008, 03:43 PM'][i][i]You keep going back and forth on this. You said that you shouldn't even allow seats to be saved for husbands or family (unless they are small children). When you are away from your family, at schools such as FUS your friends really become your family away from home. I would not have made it through without them. A few of them are already in line to be Godparents for my children[/i]

You shouldn't need your friends to get through life. God alone should suffice. Of course, family and friends are a tremendous gift from God, but we should be ready to give them up if God so desires. (Think of Job in the Bible) If someone is so attached to their family and friends that they cannot make it through one mass w/o sitting next to them then they have some serious co-dependency issues. Maybe it is because I've seen a lot of suffering in my life, but I don't view sitting next to strangers at mass as a great suffering or a traumatic experience. Besides at mass, should we be focused on the people next to us, or on God?

If mass is crowded people (esp. young men) should willing give up seats for pregnant women, the elderly, infirmed, etc. Others shouldn't needto save seats for them.[/quote]
I think it's one thing to have a man give up his seat for someone who truly needs it, and to normally save a seat for your spouse. Obviously if it's extremely crowded, nowhere else to sit, and someone who needs a seat comes up, that person can have it and I'm sure my husband would be alright standing. But on a normal Sunday, I want to sit with my family. It's fairly rare for there to not be room for me to save a seat for my husband.

[Apotheoun]

I can count the number of times that I attended the liturgy on campus at FUS on one hand (and two of those times it was a special celebration of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom), but it was fairly crowded in the chapel on campus each of the times I was there, and yet no one seemed to complain about seats being saved. I know that when the group of students I belonged to from Trinity East dorm went to the Byzantine Church in Weirton, we would just squish together so that anyone who came late could sit with us.

Edited July 9, 2008 by Apotheoun

[StColette]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1595930' date='Jul 9 2008, 10:43 AM']You shouldn't need your friends to get through life. God alone should suffice. Of course, family and friends are a tremendous gift from God,[/quote]

I didn't say I needed my friends to get through life, and yes God alone should suffice, but God places people in your life for a reason for example the priest to guide you spiritually, the friend to comfort you when someone dies, the husband to hold your hand when you are scared that you are going to lose your child, your parents to pick you up when you are little and fell down and hurt yourself. God places people in our lives for a reason, and that reason is to help build us up when we are down, to be that voice we need to hear when we are ready to give up. Don't forget that God works through ordinary people. The Saints or our Church, the Holy Father, and many others. These people are a good reminder of God's great love and mercy for His people. Face it we are human, yes God alone should suffice, but we aren't perfect and we will not be until we enter into Heaven, if we make it God willing. But don't for one minute say that you shouldn't look to friends for help or guidance.

[quote]but we should be ready to give them up if God so desires. (Think of Job in the Bible) If someone is so attached to their family and friends that they cannot make it through one mass w/o sitting next to them then they have some serious co-dependency issues. Maybe it is because I've seen a lot of suffering in my life, but I don't view sitting next to strangers at mass as a great suffering or a traumatic experience. Besides at mass, should we be focused on the people next to us, or on God?[/quote]

I never said I couldn't make it through one Mass without my husband, I have in fact, I would just rather not. There's a big difference. Everyone has seen suffering, which brings me back to some of my previous comments. Almost two years ago I lost a very good friend in a motorcycle accident, I had been at Franciscan for only a week (my second semester there). I had just spoke to this friend only hours before the accident. He didn't lead a very holy life and I was trying so hard to bring Him back to God fully. I received a call from his grandmother, who just lost her only grandchild, and she told me the news. I broke down and collapsed on the floor of a very crowded stairway at FUS. Thank the Lord that one of my friends was with me when I found at the news, and my husband (he was only my boyfriend at the time) just happened upon my friend and I sobbing. A number of professors and students walked by all making the sign of the cross and some stopping to ask if things were okay. I was over 1200 miles from home, which is where the accident happened, and I would have felt so alone and lost had my friends not been there for me during this time, reminding me of God's mercy and His love. It's not wrong to have to be reminded of those things, and it is usually taken better coming from a friend or family member who knows you.

Later that night, I went down to the dorm's chapel, where I cried my eyes out for hours. I wasn't alone though. One of the girls from Regina Angelorum, who I had never met or spoke to, held me and talked with me about what happened. She sat with me there for hours and let me know that she would let all the households know to pray for my friends, his family, and me. That care showed me what good people the households had in them.

When it comes to tragedies and times of support, God places people in our lives to remind us of Him.

[StColette]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1595970' date='Jul 9 2008, 10:54 AM']I think it's one thing to have a man give up his seat for someone who truly needs it, and to normally save a seat for your spouse. Obviously if it's extremely crowded, nowhere else to sit, and someone who needs a seat comes up, that person can have it and I'm sure my husband would be alright standing. But on a normal Sunday, I want to sit with my family. It's fairly rare for there to not be room for me to save a seat for my husband.[/quote]

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='StColette' post='1596038' date='Jul 9 2008, 10:51 AM']I didn't say I needed my friends to get through life, and yes God alone should suffice, but God places people in your life for a reason for example the priest to guide you spiritually, the friend to comfort you when someone dies, the husband to hold your hand when you are scared that you are going to lose your child, your parents to pick you up when you are little and fell down and hurt yourself. God places people in our lives for a reason, and that reason is to help build us up when we are down, to be that voice we need to hear when we are ready to give up. Don't forget that God works through ordinary people. The Saints or our Church, the Holy Father, and many others. These people are a good reminder of God's great love and mercy for His people. Face it we are human, yes God alone should suffice, but we aren't perfect and we will not be until we enter into Heaven, if we make it God willing. But don't for one minute say that you shouldn't look to friends for help or guidance.
I never said I couldn't make it through one Mass without my husband, I have in fact, I would just rather not. There's a big difference. Everyone has seen suffering, which brings me back to some of my previous comments. Almost two years ago I lost a very good friend in a motorcycle accident, I had been at Franciscan for only a week (my second semester there). I had just spoke to this friend only hours before the accident. He didn't lead a very holy life and I was trying so hard to bring Him back to God fully. I received a call from his grandmother, who just lost her only grandchild, and she told me the news. I broke down and collapsed on the floor of a very crowded stairway at FUS. Thank the Lord that one of my friends was with me when I found at the news, and my husband (he was only my boyfriend at the time) just happened upon my friend and I sobbing. A number of professors and students walked by all making the sign of the cross and some stopping to ask if things were okay. I was over 1200 miles from home, which is where the accident happened, and I would have felt so alone and lost had my friends not been there for me during this time, reminding me of God's mercy and His love. It's not wrong to have to be reminded of those things, and it is usually taken better coming from a friend or family member who knows you.

Later that night, I went down to the dorm's chapel, where I cried my eyes out for hours. I wasn't alone though. One of the girls from Regina Angelorum, who I had never met or spoke to, held me and talked with me about what happened. She sat with me there for hours and let me know that she would let all the households know to pray for my friends, his family, and me. That care showed me what good people the households had in them.

When it comes to tragedies and times of support, God places people in our lives to remind us of Him.[/quote]


I don't disagree with anything you said, but I don't see how needing support from your family and friends necessitates the need to save seats at mass. First of all, the seats don't belong to us, we don't own them, so they aren't ours to save. If we are so stuck on sitting with our clan, wheather it be at mass or the dining hall, we might miss opportunities to meet and minister to new people. I've been out of FUS for almost 9 years and I've seen many grads who have a really hard time adjusting to real the world, who became so co-dependent on their HH that they almost had a nervous breakdown their first year of college. That shouldn't happen.

FUS is a great place with wonderful people, but there are some real issues that need to be addressed.

[rkwright]

this thread makes me sad... I sit next to my fiance at mass and love the time we get to spend together at mass. Its not that I'm focused on her, for I truly am focused on the mass, but just knowing that we're there together and with God together... theres something about it...

The thought of not getting to sit together as a married couple makes me sad.

I understand the giving up your seat for someone who truly needs it. But I have no problem at saving a seat and telling someone else that its saved.

[friendofJPII]

[i]The thought of not getting to sit together as a married couple makes me sad. [/i]

It shouldn't make you sad if you understood (which I'm sure you do) what is going on at mass. I'm not saying you should never sit with your future spouse. All I'm saying is that if there were a few occasions when you could not--for whatever reason--it would not be the end of the world. It [i]is[/i] nice to pray in close proximity to your sig. other, but I think the charity and [b]mercy[/b][i][/i] of lovingly welcoming a stranger who wants to sit next to you outweighs the comfort of sitting next to your fiance for that brief period. We need to think of the greater good.

Edited July 9, 2008 by friendofJPII

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1596056' date='Jul 9 2008, 05:06 PM']this thread makes me sad... I sit next to my fiance at mass and love the time we get to spend together at mass. Its not that I'm focused on her, for I truly am focused on the mass, but just knowing that we're there together and with God together... theres something about it...

The thought of not getting to sit together as a married couple makes me sad.

I understand the giving up your seat for someone who truly needs it. But I have no problem at saving a seat and telling someone else that its saved.[/quote]
I know what you mean. There's just something about sitting with your spouse & kids.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

A quick note on cliques:

A clique is an intentionally exclusive group of friends often solidifying their own apparent unity by distinguishing themselves from other individuals or groups for the purpose of making themselves seem better.

While any group runs the risk of being cliquish, FUS households do not tend to be cliquish because:

1. They are not intentionally exclusive. If they exclude anyone, it is not because their intention is to be exclusive, but to increase the unity within their own group, which is a good and positive aim. Without that goal, they may appear more outgoing and friendly to those who might otherwise seem excluded, but those "outsiders" would then be welcomed into a group lacking inner unity because the group did not have that as a goal. Seeking internal unity, if done correctly, binds a group in fraternal love, and makes it more capable of attracting others from outside ("see how those Christians love one another"). Good is diffusive of itself, meaning that this joy and love will ultimately bubble over, and efforts should be taken to bring others into it (which the households do on a regular basis), so long as it is seen that those others share in the particular forms and charisms of the group (some people are meant for a certain household and other households don't suit them), but usually the households don't even need to make a conscious effort. Since it is so passionately lived out, they usually attract others without meaning to, which is the main vehicle of their recruitment.

2. The households do have distinguishing commitments, attitudes, and occasionally even attire, but the intention is not to be "cooler" than those other households (although, of course, they joke about that). The intention of households is, again, to increase their unity and to be a sign of unity to others.

3. I have never heard of a household intentionally excluding anyone, except when a person was viewed as a danger to the household (which is pretty rare).

4. Most people on campus who have issues with households (and I'm not saying this is you), in my opinion, are the shy ones who would find that if they'd just let down their walls, they could tag along with any members of any households they wanted. The households don't really mind. It's like that line from Meet the Robinsons, when Goob is talking about his childhood and everyone's inviting him to play in their games and come over to their homes and he just walks by and says, "nobody liked me." Cliques intentionally exclude; households just might not be the best and going out of their way to invite, but that can't be blamed on them alone, some people aren't willing to ask if they can attend something.

As for me, my friends and I were mostly not in households (though a few of us were) and we hung out with householders all the time. We might also have appeared to be our own "clique," but we weren't. We were entirely open to people joining us for activities. We also had inner unity (such that anyone could speak to one of us to relay a message to any of the others), we just didn't go around inviting people.

As for sitting with your family at Mass...the Church calls the family "the domestic church." It is fitting that the domestic church be seated together when participating in the Mass with the parish Church and the Universal Church. The domestic church will be going home together and spending the rest of the week together. It's best that they be at Mass together as well. I understand what you mean about sitting apart so as to join in more with the rest of the community, but that doesn't jive with the Church's attitude. A person has a much higher obligation to his own family than to the parish community.

God bless,

Micah

[rkwright]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1596067' date='Jul 9 2008, 11:12 AM'][i]The thought of not getting to sit together as a married couple makes me sad. [/i]

It shouldn't make you sad if you understood (which I'm sure do) what is going on at mass. I'm not saying you should never sit with your future spouse. All I'm saying is that if there were a few occasions when you could not--for whatever reason--it would not be the end of the world. It is nice to pray in close proximity to your sig. other, but I think the charity of lovingly welcoming a stranger who wants to sit next to you outweighs the comfort of sitting next to your fiance for that brief period.[/quote]

I can't quiet figure out where you're coming from on this. I agree that if it is an elderly person, or a person in need, then they probably need the seat - these would be the few occasions.

However if there was a stranger, not really in need, that for some reason wants to sit next to me, I would say that seat is for my wife. Its not about the comfort factor of sitting next to someone I know. Its that there is a special bond, a bond that God has blessed.

Just wondering are you married or engaged?

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1596078' date='Jul 9 2008, 11:19 AM']A quick note on cliques:

A clique is an intentionally exclusive group of friends often solidifying their own apparent unity by distinguishing themselves from other individuals or groups for the purpose of making themselves seem better.

While any group runs the risk of being cliquish, FUS households do not tend to be cliquish because:

1. They are not intentionally exclusive. If they exclude anyone, it is not because their intention is to be exclusive, but to increase the unity within their own group, which is a good and positive aim. Without that goal, they may appear more outgoing and friendly to those who might otherwise seem excluded, but those "outsiders" would then be welcomed into a group lacking inner unity because the group did not have that as a goal. Seeking internal unity, if done correctly, binds a group in fraternal love, and makes it more capable of attracting others from outside ("see how those Christians love one another"). Good is diffusive of itself, meaning that this joy and love will ultimately bubble over, and efforts should be taken to bring others into it (which the households do on a regular basis), so long as it is seen that those others share in the particular forms and charisms of the group (some people are meant for a certain household and other households don't suit them), but usually the households don't even need to make a conscious effort. Since it is so passionately lived out, they usually attract others without meaning to, which is the main vehicle of their recruitment.

2. The households do have distinguishing commitments, attitudes, and occasionally even attire, but the intention is not to be "cooler" than those other households (although, of course, they joke about that). The intention of households is, again, to increase their unity and to be a sign of unity to others.

3. I have never heard of a household intentionally excluding anyone, except when a person was viewed as a danger to the household (which is pretty rare).

4. Most people on campus who have issues with households (and I'm not saying this is you), in my opinion, are the shy ones who would find that if they'd just let down their walls, they could tag along with any members of any households they wanted. The households don't really mind. It's like that line from Meet the Robinsons, when Goob is talking about his childhood and everyone's inviting him to play in their games and come over to their homes and he just walks by and says, "nobody liked me." Cliques intentionally exclude; households just might not be the best and going out of their way to invite, but that can't be blamed on them alone, some people aren't willing to ask if they can attend something.

As for me, my friends and I were mostly not in households (though a few of us were) and we hung out with householders all the time. We might also have appeared to be our own "clique," but we weren't. We were entirely open to people joining us for activities. We also had inner unity (such that anyone could speak to one of us to relay a message to any of the others), we just didn't go around inviting people.

As for sitting with your family at Mass...the Church calls the family "the domestic church." It is fitting that the domestic church be seated together when participating in the Mass with the parish Church and the Universal Church. The domestic church will be going home together and spending the rest of the week together. It's best that they be at Mass together as well. I understand what you mean about sitting apart so as to join in more with the rest of the community, but that doesn't jive with the Church's attitude. A person has a much higher obligation to his own family than to the parish community.

God bless,

Micah[/quote]

Like I said, most HH don't mean to be exclusive, but by the nature of so many commitments many are. Between coursework and commitments there is little time to make other friends, and perform works of mercy. When it comes to works of mercy ministries, student participation is dismal (at least when I was there). The school I attended before transferring to FUS, St. Bonaventure Univ, has a student volunteer rate of 80%. Although their Catholicism is far from orthodox, there is something to be said for that. I think FUS needs to create more of a balance between prayer and social action. Many students are so focused on their own spiritual lives, intellectual theology, and creating a Catholic bubble that they forget about the outside world that needs them so desperately. Maybe it is just me, but I found HH life stifiling. I am the kind of person who just likes to be freinds with people, and that was kinda hard because if you tried to befriend someone who was is a different HH, you felt as if there was a wall between you guys. "Yeah, I would really like to eat dinner with so and so, but my HH is expecting me to eat dinner with them, what do I do?" And if you wanted date someone, you had to date their HH too. No boundaries, no privacy.

Edited July 9, 2008 by friendofJPII

[friendofJPII]

[i]However if there was a stranger, not really in need, that for some reason wants to sit next to me, I would say that seat is for my wife. Its not about the comfort factor of sitting next to someone I know. Its that there is a special bond, a bond that God has blessed. [/i]

The stranger may have a greater need than the person who is physically challenged in some way. How do you know? They might commit suicide because they felt rejected at Church. I'm not saying you would be at fault if they did such a thing (because they obviously would have had other issues) but perhaps a warm smile and "yes, I would love it you sat next to me" even tho it would be a sacrifice not to sit next to your sig other---might give them enough hope to hold on a little longer.

Edited July 9, 2008 by friendofJPII

[rkwright]

And what if on the way home we were in a car wreck and me or my wife was killed...

Dreaming up hypotheticals can be interesting, but honestly I think the elderly or pregnant person wanting a seat covers 99.9% of the 'exceptions'.

[StColette]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1596095' date='Jul 9 2008, 12:45 PM']The stranger may have a greater need than the person who is physically challenged in some way. How do you know? They might commit suicide because they felt rejected at Church. I'm not saying you would be at fault if they did such a thing (because they obviously would have had other issues) but perhaps a warm smile and "yes, I would love it you sat next to me" even tho it would be a sacrifice not to sit next to your sig other---might give them enough hope to hold on a little longer.[/quote]

The thing is we just don't know. How do you know that the person they are saving a seat for isn't in greater need? How do you know? We can say with a friendly smile that we are saving this seat for so and so (husband, pregnant wife, child, elderly person, etc.). Of course it would not be someones fault that someone went and committed suicide, to even think that one would be culpable is silly.

The point I'm making is that given certain peoples medical conditions the need to have someone familiar with the situation near is very important. For example, if I went into pre-term labor and my husband is on the other side of the Church in a pew or even a few pews back he is going to have great difficulty getting to me because people like crowding around when things happen. You can't know for sure when something like that may happen. I watched someone have a heart attack in Mass once, not pretty and Thanks be to God their spouse was next to them and knew what to do and had their meds with them.

Frankly it really isn't any of our business why they are saving a seat. Maybe they have someone with them who is in great need of going to Mass or in great need of prayers and they are there with them for support.

I saved a seat at Mass for my father, who had not been to Mass in 12 years and who was recently reconciled to the Church and this was his first Mass. I save a seat for my husband because he knows my medical issues more than anyone in that parish, except for maybe the retired OBGYN who has helped us a little.

When it comes down to it, the Church hasn't spoke out against saving seats and nor has any priest or parish I've ever attended. So unless the Church tells me "hey Jennie you can't save seats at Mass" then I will continue to save a seat for my husband and family.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='StColette' post='1596216' date='Jul 9 2008, 01:38 PM']The thing is we just don't know. How do you know that the person they are saving a seat for isn't in greater need? How do you know? We can say with a friendly smile that we are saving this seat for so and so (husband, pregnant wife, child, elderly person, etc.). Of course it would not be someones fault that someone went and committed suicide, to even think that one would be culpable is silly.

The point I'm making is that given certain peoples medical conditions the need to have someone familiar with the situation near is very important. For example, if I went into pre-term labor and my husband is on the other side of the Church in a pew or even a few pews back he is going to have great difficulty getting to me because people like crowding around when things happen. You can't know for sure when something like that may happen. I watched someone have a heart attack in Mass once, not pretty and Thanks be to God their spouse was next to them and knew what to do and had their meds with them.

Frankly it really isn't any of our business why they are saving a seat. Maybe they have someone with them who is in great need of going to Mass or in great need of prayers and they are there with them for support.

I saved a seat at Mass for my father, who had not been to Mass in 12 years and who was recently reconciled to the Church and this was his first Mass. I save a seat for my husband because he knows my medical issues more than anyone in that parish, except for maybe the retired OBGYN who has helped us a little.

When it comes down to it, the Church hasn't spoke out against saving seats and nor has any priest or parish I've ever attended. So unless the Church tells me "hey Jennie you can't save seats at Mass" then I will continue to save a seat for my husband and family.[/quote]

The Church doesn't need to speak out against it. It's the law of charity, it's about Jesus' command to show mercy to the destitute, about the need to break free of our disordered attachments, which applies to all of us, married, single, and religious. Of course, if you have extenuating circumstances, if a spouse has a serious medical condition, then you should sit together but most of the time you would walk in together. But again, this is where trust in God comes in, if your husband where to give up his seat for an elderly woman, you would have to trust Him that he would not let you go into pre-term labor, or if you did, you would still get the appropriate medical attention. I'm sure your husband isn't with you 24/7. Sometimes God calls us to the heroic. Again, I'm not saying families shouldn't sit together, they def should, I'm just saying it isn't an [i]absolute necessity[/i] all the time. But anyway, my main post was concerning saving seats at FUS masses, where most students are healthy. If people walk in together, then fine they can sit together, but reserving entires pews (sometimes 3 pews) for HHs is childish and rude. What is the big deal if a non-HH person sits in your pew? Perhaps no one formally complained but I'm sure I was not the only one who felt left out.

Edited July 9, 2008 by friendofJPII