Mediatrix

[willguy]

Now, if Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces, can we say "Mary, grant me <insert grace here>" or should we instead say "Mary, pray that I may recieve <insert grace here>"? This may sound like a stupid question, but IMO it has large implications. Can Mary distribute the graces herself (as the first way would imply) or can she only ask that these graces be given us (as the second implies)? Or am I reading too much into this?

[Adeodatus]

Only God can give grace, "from His fullness we have all received grace upon grace", as Scripture says. Mary can only pray for us to receive God's grace.

Also, if you think of grace less like gas to fill up your spiritual car, and more like the divine life of the Trinity filling you and changing you into a new creation in Jesus, then it looks clearer why only God gives us grace----grace is sharing in God's own life.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I think it can be proper to ask Mary to "grant grace" since this can be in keeping with Her role as the Mediatrix of All Grace.

There is obviously nothing wrong with asking Mary to "obtain grace" as opposed to granting it, but both statements seem fine to me given Mary's singular status in the order of the subjective redemption and the distribution of Graces. Mary's role as Mediatrix and Exemplar of the Church is an active role. Saint Maximillian expresses it well when he wrote that "God has willed to entrust the entire order of Mercy to you [Mary]."

I will attempt to clarify a few things. Christ alone atoned for our sins on the cross. He alone acquired the grace of Redemption for the entire human race, including Mary. And Christ's passion did not require any support. However, Mary was called into a unique vocation as the Mother of God and the Mother of the Church and God willed that she should participate more profoundly and perfectly then any other creature in the Sacrifice of Calvary and in fact merited "de congruo" what Christ merited "de condigno". In other words she merited the application of the redemptive grace of Christ on behalf of mankind. You might say she stood in as the spotless Bride at Calvary and was entrusted with the role of Mother of the Church and thus actively cooperates in an ever-present way, in the subjective redemption of mankind in Christ, in and through His Body the Church.

I will make an analogy: just as the Church Herself dispenses grace as it were (ie., the Sacraments, Indulgences, etc..), the model, type, exemplar and Mother of the Church can rightly be implored for a dispensation of Grace and this is in fact pleasing to God and according to His will because this is precisely the honor which He has willed to bestow upon His handmaid.

But explicitly asking Our Lady to "grant grace" as opposed to "obtain grace" is not strictly required because Her mode of granting grace is intrinsically intercessory anyway because she is a creature and is subject to the Will of God. So in a technical sense it is always an intercessory mode of granting grace since it is a cooperation in God's granting of Grace. The title of Spouse of the Holy Spirit is illuminating in this regard. In the life of the Church the Holy Spirit always works in union with Mary who's very life is inseperable from that of the Church. The union of Mary and the Holy Spirit is the most perfect union possible between God and a creature. Whereas Jesus is one person with a human and Divine nature, Mary and the Holy Spirit are two persons, one human, one Divine, with two natures but in a union so profound that there are no words to describe it. The closest analogies are titles such as Spouse of the Holy Spirit, or St. Maximilian's title "quasi-incarnate Holy Spirit".

So anyway, I think it's misleading to say that Mary can only pray for us to recieve grace and cannot rightly grant it because there is a sense in which she does grant grace and Her role as Mediatrix is more active then that. Mary's Mediation exists in different modes. First there is Mary's "remote mediation" whereby she mediated the entire Grace of Salvation to the world through Her cooperation with God's Will in bringing forth Jesus Christ who, having come down from the Father of Lights, is the sum of all that is Good and Perfect and Who alone is our Salvation. Secondly is Mary's "proximate" or "immediate mediation" whereby she mediates the Salvific Graces of Calvary through Her active and willed intercession. And there is a sense in which Mary "owns" the graces of Calvary and thus truly and of Her own will "grants grace". So God alone is the source of all Grace and He alone grants Grace in the proper sense but Mary can grant grace is a secondary, intercessory way through cooperation with God.

Certain Theologies like to setup a dichotomy between God and creatures which cannot comprehend such deep, active participation in God's works on the part of His creatures. This is especially the case with certain types of protestant Theology and Islamic thought. The idea of creatures having any kind of real efficacy is seen as taking away from the Divine Power and Majesty. In fact that opposite is the case. The most well known example would be free-will. The Muslim and Protestant theologies which deny free will tend to do so on the premise that to affirm free will is to attack God's power. For example how could a creature do something that is against God's will? Doesn't that take away from God's power? Hence they tend toward things like double-predestination and deterministic cosmologies.

But the truth is it is an offense to God's power to say that He does not have the power to create creatures with efficacious free-will. This is perhaps the highest expression of God's power and goodness. And the very fact of free will and of the existence of conscious, knowing, personal beings proclaims the reality of participation in the Divine. The perfection of the will is the Good, conformity to, or one might say union through cooperation with Absolute Good. Similarly Absolute Truth is the end toward which the existence of our conscious intellectual faculty points. So to deny the reality of subordinate mediation, participation in the Divine Life, etc. is to imply metaphysical and cosmological ideas which ultimately end in something far less than the reality of the dynamic, Trinitarian God of Love who has created an Incarnational universe and draws all things to Himself.

The Mystery of Jesus Christ is the Exemplar and Fontal Principle, the Door and the Gate, the Consummation of this reality. And Mary, who alone has an intrinsic relation to the Hypostatic Union is the prototype and perfection of creation drawn into the Life of God.

[willguy]

Thanx.

So that would mean that it is acceptable to ask Mary to do things besides pray for us. (For example, a prayer by St. Augustine reads "Holy Mary, help the miserable, strengthen the discouraged, comfort the sorrowful...").

[Laudate_Dominum]

Thanx.

So that would mean that it is acceptable to ask Mary to do things besides pray for us. (For example, a prayer by St. Augustine reads "Holy Mary, help the miserable, strengthen the discouraged, comfort the sorrowful...").

Yes, it is most fitting and right to beseech the Mother of God in various ways other than a request for prayers.

Her role is active and maternal and goes beyond merely taking prayer requests. She actively protects and nourishes us Christians as any mother would. Although certainly Her role is essentially intercessory. For example when we ask Mary to grant us the grace of a holy death we realize that she is not God and that the means by which She has the power to grant something such as this is dependent upon God's Will, and the fact that we beseech Her is only because God has ordained it this way. It is all dependent on God and Mary is not like a goddess but is a handmaid and loving mother. She is a creature and is absolutely dependent upon God. It is specifically because of Her profound humility, lowliness and powerlessness that God has bestowed upon Her such a high office. "He has cast down the mighty from their thrones and has lifted up the lowly". Saint Louis de Montfort says that the quality about Mary that most attracts God is Her unparalleled humility. Mary is the most humble of all creatures and the most utterly abandoned to God and thus God has exalted Her all the more.

[phatcatholic]

laud_dom,

since my Catholic renewal, or conversion, almost 2 years ago, i have been somewhat hesitant to fully embrace marian devotion, b/c of certain aspects that i did not completely understand. but, reading your lasts two posts on the matter has helped me tremendously to better connect w/ my Holy Mother.

thanks bro, i needed that

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[willguy]

^--Amen to that!

[Jake Huether]

It's like asking the waterboy for a glass of water. He provides it to you. Though he got the water from somewhere else. We don't need to ask the other person if it's okay to have water from the watwerboy. That's what he's there for.

God has give Mary special favors. We don't need to ask God if it's okay to ask Mary. He's already deamed it okay! He gave her to us as our Mother!

All glory and praise be to God for His abundant Goodness and Love. He has given us such a wonderful family. Such a loving Mother!

Thank you Lord!

[Adeodatus]

Laudate Dominum, Are you a Franciscan?!! :D I did think that in our last exchange about Mary as Co-redemptrix. You certainly have that Franciscan style of Mariology. And that's fair enough... after all the Franciscans defended the Immaculate Conception when Aquinas couldn't see how it would still leave Mary as redeemed creature.

I like your second post when you emphasise Mary's active role. In your first post you do say this:

But explicitly asking Our Lady to "grant grace" as opposed to "obtain grace" is not strictly required because Her mode of granting grace is intrinsically intercessory anyway because she is a creature and is subject to the Will of God. So in a technical sense it is always an intercessory mode of granting grace since it is a cooperation in God's granting of Grace.

I agree with you that Mary's "granting" of grace is always intercessory. Again you say:

So God alone is the source of all Grace and He alone grants Grace in the proper sense but Mary can grant grace is a secondary, intercessory way through cooperation with God.

I kind of hinted at the problem with viewing grace as "spiritual stuff". In a way, it is misleading to think of "created grace" as a bit of spiritual goodness God infuses into our souls. We know that God Himself is the "uncreated grace", and He desires to dwell in and with us. So it is not so much that God gives us "created grace", but that He creates us anew, makes us a new creation "in grace". He makes us a new creation by His indwelling us. Created and uncreated grace go together. And the former is not "stuff", but us being made anew in grace.

Now in this conception of grace, it becomes difficult and awkward to speak of Mary as "granting" grace. I agree you can use the word "granting" of Mary, but it can lead to misunderstandings. How does Mary grant us the Trinity? Through her intercession? Definitely. And you yourself are agreed that "Mary can grant grace is a secondary, intercessory way".

That's why I prefer to emphasise God's initiative in giving "grace" (i.e. Himself), and to avoid language about Mary "granting" grace.

Jake, your analogy of the water-boy and water is good. But all analogies of God must fail sooner or later. This one has the image of grace as "stuff" that's come from God. It's not stuff, but God Himself, creating us anew as He indwells us.

[M.SIGGA]

If the doctrine says she is the Mediatrix, why would there be necessity to ask her if graces are going to flow through her anyways - and it's all graces right? Lol I'm getting confused again :unsure:

[Jake Huether]

Jake, your analogy of the water-boy and water is good. But all analogies of God must fail sooner or later. This one has the image of grace as "stuff" that's come from God. It's not stuff, but God Himself, creating us anew as He indwells us.

Hey thanks for pointing that out. That makes even more sense then, because Mary brought humanity to Grace when she said "yes". That is, Grace (God) became man.

Therefore, Mary truly is the Mother of all Grace, since she is the Mother of God.

Would this be correct?

[Laudate_Dominum]

Laudate Dominum,  Are you a Franciscan?!!  :D  I did think that in our last exchange about Mary as Co-redemptrix.    You certainly have that Franciscan style of Mariology.  And that's fair enough... after all the Franciscans defended the Immaculate Conception when Aquinas couldn't see how it would still leave Mary as redeemed creature.

I like your second post when you emphasise Mary's active role.  In your first post you do say this: 

I agree with you that Mary's "granting" of grace is always intercessory.  Again you say: 

I kind of hinted at the problem with viewing grace as "spiritual stuff".  In a way, it is misleading to think of "created grace" as a bit of spiritual goodness God infuses into our souls.  We know that God Himself is the "uncreated grace", and He desires to dwell in and with us.  So it is not so much that God gives us "created grace", but that He creates us anew, makes us a new creation "in grace".    He makes us a new creation by His indwelling us.  Created and uncreated grace go together.  And the former is not "stuff", but us being made anew in grace.

Now in this conception of grace, it becomes difficult and awkward to speak of Mary as "granting" grace.  I agree you can use the word "granting" of Mary, but it can lead to misunderstandings.  How does Mary grant us the Trinity?  Through her intercession?  Definitely.  And you yourself are agreed that "Mary can grant grace is a secondary, intercessory way".

That's why I prefer to emphasise God's initiative in giving "grace" (i.e. Himself), and to avoid language about Mary "granting" grace.

Jake, your analogy of the water-boy and water is good.  But all analogies of God must fail sooner or later.  This one has the image of grace as "stuff" that's come from God.  It's not stuff, but God Himself, creating us anew as He indwells us.

LOL! That's funny Adeodatus. Actually most of my mariological research has been from the Franciscan school and St. Bonaventure is my favorite of the scholastics. I've detected a certain Dominican trait in you after our past exchange as well. Haha, too funny.

I agree with your point about avoiding the excessive use of physical categories when discussing grace. I think it can serve a purpose even in a theological way. God Himself has used physical imagery to describe grace. But certainly grace is not like magic pixie dust.

Nonetheless God uses created realities (ie., bread and wine, water and oil, etc) and physical instruments to communicate that Divine Life to us. And so it can be quite appropriate to employ physical analogies and categories for describing the operations of grace. I'm sure we are basically in agreement but just have a different emphasis, which is fine by me. Thank you for your thoughtful posts.

Peace.

Edited March 2, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[Adeodatus]

M.Sigga,

If the doctrine says she is the Mediatrix, why would there be necessity to ask her if graces are going to flow through her anyways - and it's all graces right?

God's grace comes to us through our asking and our willingness to receive it. And Mary acts as Mediatrix according to our asking and willingness to receive God's grace. M.Sigga, you have put your finger on a problem though. Why do we have to ask if grace is free? I guess we still have to ask because God doesn't force Himself on us.

Jake,

Yes.

Therefore, Mary truly is the Mother of all Grace, since she is the Mother of God.

That's an even better way of putting it. I guess from that you could say Mary is the Mother of the Church (the Body of Christ) because she's the Mother of the Head of that Body, Christ our Lord and God.

I think these two ideas are related: Mary as Mother of Grace and Mother of the Church.

I have to admit, Jake, I think you're on to a winner with this idea.

Therefore, Mary truly is the Mother of all Grace, since she is the Mother of God.

It is a beautiful way of looking at our salvation in a wider context. It combines Mary's primary title (Mother of God) with Christ's saving work (Mother of Grace) and Mary's maternal mediation and intercession (Mother [i.e. Mediatrix] of all Grace and Mother of the Church).

Through Mary's intercession and maternal mediation, God Himself comes to indwell us and transform us into a new creation, into His children. For this reason St Irenaeus calls Mary the "cause of our salvation" in this specific sense of intercession and maternal mediation of the New Eve. This would also be related to St Augustine's idea that Mary conceived God's Word by faith in her heart first, before she conceived God's Word in her womb. She intercedes for us to undergo that first kind of "conception" too, that God may be born in us.

I suspect Laudate Dominum will want me to not leave out Our Lady's objective role in the Redemption: that she merited de congruo (in fittingness) with Christ who merited de condigno (out of His own worthiness).

Peace be with you all! Amen.

[M.SIGGA]

M.Sigga,

God's grace comes to us through our asking and our willingness to receive it. And Mary acts as Mediatrix according to our asking and willingness to receive God's grace. M.Sigga, you have put your finger on a problem though. Why do we have to ask if grace is free? I guess we still have to ask because God doesn't force Himself on us.

But isn't asking graces from God, the author of grace, completely different than asking BVM? For example a Protestant can still recieve grace even though they never ask Mary, right? Like when I pray to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, do those graces obtained come through the BVM even though she isn't directly invoked - or what about the Sacraments - do those graces also come through the BVM?

[Jake Huether]

But isn't asking graces from God, the author of grace, completely different than asking BVM? For example a Protestant can still recieve grace even though they never ask Mary, right? Like when I pray to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, do those graces obtained come through the BVM even though she isn't directly invoked - or what about the Sacraments - do those graces also come through the BVM?

Jesus is available to all humanity, Protestants included. And it was through Mary that He came. It doesn't matter if they aren't focused on Mary. She brought Jesus into the world. Through Mary, by the Will of God, did all Grace flow into the world. It doesn't matter if Protestants recognize it is or was through Mary. That is the way God brought Grace to humanity; through Mary.

With the view that God is Grace, then if a Protestant askes for God, God will give Himself to them - but the fact of the matter is, Jesus achieved His humanity through Mary. So when God gives Himself to Protestants, Mary was already the distributer - as Willed by God.

If we ask Mary for Grace, then she will show us God, her Son. And her Son is the Grace. And her Son is the Church. And the Church gives us the Graces through the Sacraments.