Moslems Vs Nuns & Monks

[mortify]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1591958' date='Jul 5 2008, 10:51 AM']Okay... question... Would a woman be allowed to work on a male patient under the same strict Muslim law that would require her to wear a niqab? Because if not, then the whole question is pretty moot.[/quote]

I'm obviously not a Muslim scholar, but from my recollection and understanding, a Muslim woman is not permitted to be with a non-relative male, unless a relative male chaperon is present. I certainly can't imagine a strict understanding would permit such a woman to physically examine a male patient.

[CatherineM]

There have been several research projects in hospitals, and they found the most unsanitary things were doctor's ties. They tend to dangle onto patients, and how often do guys actually wash their ties? If a scarf hangs down, same problem.

As to nun's veil's, our church runs a concession stand at the CFL football stadium here, and I supervise the kitchen. Last week, one of our sisters who wears a habit was one of my volunteers. Normally we are all required to wear Coke logo shirts and ball hats. I told the food service supervisor, that she was going to wear her veil and not the ball hat, and if someone had a problem with it, they could come down and complain to me personally. I'm kind of big and imposing when I want to be, but no one had a problem with it, after all her hair was definitely covered.

[dominicansoul]

Having worn a habit in the kitchen, there are several ways we keep the loose fabric away from our hands and the food....

But I can see Autumn Dusk's point about it all being sanitary....we never changed our habits but once a week, and I'm sure they had loads of microscopic bacteria crawling all over them....and no matter how careful we were, I'm sure some of those germs landed on the food...

...Good thing we always prayed Grace before our meals! We hardly ever became sick!!!

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1591958' date='Jul 5 2008, 10:51 AM']Okay... question... Would a woman be allowed to work on a male patient under the same strict Muslim law that would require her to wear a niqab? Because if not, then the whole question is pretty moot.[/quote]


As I mentioned earlier, many of these Muslims are coming from countries and cultures where women didn't have jobs outside the house in the first place, thus they are unprepared for the unique challenges of being of a religion with this many restrictions in a Western culture.

It's not just the clothing issue. There was also the case of the Muslim woman who worked as a supermarket cashier and who pitched a fit because she was threatened with firing when she refused to ring up any sales involving pork or alchohol stating the Islamic law that forbids a Muslim to even TOUCH these items. As has become the norm in the spineless West, her boss kow-towed to her cries of discrimination and she was allowed to keep her job--all sales involving pork products or alchohol were to be handled by another staff member. And of course there was the infamous incident in New York involving Muslim cab drivers who were trying to get their cab association to allow them to refuse passengers with dogs or who were carrying in their possession obvious containers of alchohol. Thankfully, the NY cab association put their foot down and refused. There are numerous more incidents like this all over Europe, Canada and the USA, and in some cases as far as China.

There are only two options therefore: 1) Islam has to be reformed or 2) Muslims themselves have to step down and be willing to make a few compromises (which might put them in direct conflict with their religion).

Just more proof to me that Islam is an oppressive regime that squeezes the life out of anyone who has the misfortune to become involved with it.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='mortify' post='1591987' date='Jul 5 2008, 11:16 AM']I'm obviously not a Muslim scholar, but from my recollection and understanding, a Muslim woman is not permitted to be with a non-relative male, unless a relative male chaperon is present. I certainly can't imagine a strict understanding would permit such a woman to physically examine a male patient.[/quote]


That's imposed more strictly only in certain countries. In Saudi Arabia it's enforced with a punishment of imprisonment or lashes, or both. Two years ago there was that horrible case involving a 19 year old girl who was caught sitting in a car with a male friend her same age. They were both dragged from the car and raped. BOTH were raped. The woman was gang-raped by at least 8 men. Some of the men received prison time but none received no more than 6 months of jail time. The young woman received a sentence of a few months prison time and over 60 lashes because after all she broke the law by being out of her house without a male relative. When she complained to a lawyer the lashes were doubled. When the case gained international attention, the Saudi government finally backed off saying she had been "punished" enough what with the rapes and all. Unbelieveable.

But my Muslim friend from Tunisia is not veiled and she has a boyfriend and she drives a car. So that culture seems to be more moderate.

[CatholicCid]

Considering that the institutions that "bend the rules" for the Nuns and Monks would be religious institutions, I don't really see any comparison here. Yes, a nun working in a religious hospital would be allowed to wear most, if not all, of their habit. Why wouldn't they? It's a religious hospital. Yes, a monk baking in his monastery can bake in whatever he chooses to wear. Why wouldn't he?

Now, if these religious went out to obtain secular jobs, odds are they would have to don work appropriate uniforms.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Seven77' post='1591981' date='Jul 5 2008, 11:12 AM']bottom line: it's not going to kill us to see a woman in a hijab--unless it's Osama in disguise.[/quote]


No one here has said there's any problem with the veil. Most democratic nations and most workplaces and schools in those nations don't have a problem with it either.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1592052' date='Jul 5 2008, 12:47 PM']Considering that the institutions that "bend the rules" for the Nuns and Monks would be religious institutions, I don't really see any comparison here.[/quote]

Nope, there was really no comparison at all, not from the very beginning of this thread.

[Autumn Dusk]

my point is that a bakery in a monistary isn't any different than a bakery in walmart. We say its fine for religious to wear their habits but not for moslem women to wear theirs. Its a double standard. It can't be sanitary for monks and not for a moslem working at walmart (so long as everything is tied back correctly.)

Like seven77 said, it won't kill us.

I'm just trying to point out that dirt is dirt. Weither it be on a moslems' garb or a nun's. A few extreme cases get under eveyone's skin here in America (or the general part of the UK) and suddenly its a huge issue.

Why do we even need to talk about violence in the moslem world. This is about how we view others.

You could say Athiests are making just as much trouble as moslems in their radical demads on occasion. During the Cold War it was basically unheard of to be athiest...thats why they added "under god" to the pledge. It was a financial death sentence as late as the 60's to declare oneself Athiest. But we don't go around saying that people can't be athiests now becuase some athiests want the pledge changed or a christmas tree taken down. Those persons are on the fringe.

[mortify]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1592050' date='Jul 5 2008, 12:46 PM']That's imposed more strictly only in certain countries...[/quote]

That was a very unfortunate and sad case, but I was referring to actual Islamic fiq, not to what degree it's applied in other countries, though it is interesting Saudi Arabia is one of the few countries that upholds it.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1591889' date='Jul 5 2008, 08:05 AM']I'm not going to play your game, Autumn Dusk. Go find someone else to play mind games with.[/quote]

if you arent going to play [b]her [/b]game then why are you in her thread?

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='mortify' post='1592115' date='Jul 5 2008, 01:18 PM']That was a very unfortunate and sad case, but I was referring to actual Islamic fiq, not to what degree it's applied in other countries, though it is interesting Saudi Arabia is one of the few countries that upholds it.[/quote]


Then I don't understand what your point was or what reply you're looking for. Becuase you said:

[quote]I certainly can't imagine a strict understanding would permit such a woman to physically examine a male patient.[/quote]

And I gave you a specific country that does maintain a "strict understanding" of this Islamic law, and I gave an example of what women in that country can expect to endure if they break this law. So what was your point?

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1592144' date='Jul 5 2008, 02:03 PM']if you arent going to play [b]her [/b]game then why are you in her thread?[/quote]

My issue with AD in this thread has been CLOSED. So why are you bringing it up? This makes you look like you are [b]instigating an argument[/b] or something.

Edited July 5, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1592073' date='Jul 5 2008, 12:56 PM']my point is that a bakery in a monistary isn't any different than a bakery in walmart. We say its fine for religious to wear their habits but not for moslem women to wear theirs. Its a double standard. It can't be sanitary for monks and not for a moslem working at walmart (so long as everything is tied back correctly.)[/quote]

Perhaps you can cite some specific cases for us? The only thread I recall seeing recently was about a woman suing a hair saloon because she wouldn't be allowed to wear a head covering.
And yes, baking in a monastery is different then baking in walmart. A monastery is where monks live. It is a closer comparison to you baking in your own home then bakers at a walmart.
It's fine for the religious to wear their garb, even when performing mundane everyday tasks such as baking. Just as it is fine for Muslim women to wear head coverings and anything else they wish to wear. However, if either group enter a secular workfield that requires a uniform or the such, then they will most likely be required to wear said uniform.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1592162' date='Jul 5 2008, 01:12 PM']My issue with AD in this thread has been CLOSED. So why are you bringing it up? This makes you look like you are [b]instigating an argument[/b] or something.[/quote]

well, sorry then. it was only an hour or two ago, hardly dead and gone, and i hadnt seen anything to say otherwise.

and i am pretty sure the only reason it looks like i am starting an argument is due to your bolded comment there, i have many things i would rather do than sit here arguing semantics.


AD, your question is a good one, but not really applicable these days. i have nothing against people wearing traditional garments, religious or not, as long as it doesnt get in there way and affect me. it does seem like you get a lot of flak for wearing muslim garb and i dont agree with that, but i dont see a clear comparison with nuns and monks.
for one thing, i have so far lived for almost 20 years without ever seeing a nun or monk "in the flesh", only ever in pictures. by the nature of their religious life, they are not often subjected to the demands of secular jobs.

in hospitals, if you can find a way to work as well as everyone else while keeping your religious requirements, then i say go ahead. otherwise view it as something to work around, ie) i probably couldnt ever be a fighter pilot because of my adhd and non perfect vision. i would expect the requirements for a complex job like that to change to fit me.

so basically, as long as people can still meet the requirements, who cares what their clothes look like?