the lumberjack Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 anything not in the Word of God, is not of God...I'm not TRYING to "sound" like a jerk...but it says in Revelation clear enough, Revelation 22:18b, 19"If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." so if its not explicitly in the Bible...I would...hmm...leave it up to you to discern that. and you're right...God does call for us to do good deeds, but they had better be of Him, and not of us, lest we become prideful and puffed up, thinking we are something. and heaven, as you said, is a guarantee to those who follow faithfully till the end...and thats who I was talking about too...so, we agree on that too! because so long as we follow Christ, and live as He did, and follow His word, and don't let anyone deceive us, we're in! and I look forward to that SOOO much. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 anything not in the Word of God, is not of God...I'm not TRYING to "sound" like a jerk...but it says in Revelation clear enough, Revelation 22:18b, 19"If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." so if its not explicitly in the Bible...I would...hmm...leave it up to you to discern that. Number one, those passages are referring to the contents of the book of Revelation. And also, if they did refer to the Bible, then it would've been a sin to add the New Testament to the Bible, as at the time, only the Old Testament existed. So tell me where it says in the Bible that everything must be found within it? That all Christian offices and doctrines are to be found within the Bible, and that if it is not found in the Bible then it is adding to the Scriptures and false? If you cannot show this to me, then you violate your own principle of sola scriptura. and heaven, as you said, is a guarantee to those who follow faithfully till the end...and thats who I was talking about too...so, we agree on that too! because so long as we follow Christ, and live as He did, and follow His word, and don't let anyone deceive us, we're in! and I look forward to that SOOO much. You seem certain that you're going to heaven. No one can be absolutely certain of it. There's always the possibility that we could fall away. What makes you certain that won't happen? It COULD -- it could happen to all of us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 You may post the Word of God, but how do you know you interpret it correctly? There's nothing unbiblical about the Catholic Church -- it's the only COMPLETELY biblical Church -- the same Church that Christ founded and that has been faithfully handing on His teachings for 2000 years. You're apparently not a Catholic, and so your church hasn't been around that long, and it certainly wasn't founded by Jesus Christ. And where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is to be the sole authority for a Christian? Confession of sins to a priest (a mediator between God and man) [see I Timothy 2:5 - "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" / I Peter 2:5 (speaking of all Christians being a priesthood)] Prayers to dead saints (see Deuteronomy 18:10-12 - "Let no one be found among you who... who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD...") Offering of masses, prayers and rosaries for those who suffer in "purgatory" (see Hebrews 9:27 - "...Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.") is THAT in accordance with the BIBLE? In the very last commandment in the Bible God resolutely tells us not to add to nor take away from His Word....which pretty much puts it ALONE as the end all be all for a Christian to live by. "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book" -Revelation 22:18-19 His Word is absolutely sufficient in itself. (Psalm 119:160) The Biblical message breathed out by God is revelation in written form. (2 Timothy 3:15-16). The Biblical claim is that what God has inspired was His written word (2 Peter 1:20-21). When the Lord Jesus Christ said, "the Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35), He was speaking of God's written word. The events, actions, commandments, and truths from God are given to us in propositional form, i.e. logical, written sentences. God's declaration in Scripture is that it and it alone, is this final authority in all matters of faith and morals. Thus there is only one written source from God, and there is only one basis of truth for the Lord's people in the Church. Affirmed by Jesus Christ The Lord Jesus Christ, Himself, identified truth with the written Word. In His great high priestly prayer, He said, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." This was consistent with the declarations right through the Old Testament in which the Holy Spirit continually proclaims that the revelation from God is truth, as for example Psalm 119:142, "thy law is truth." There is no source other than Scripture alone to which such a statement applies. That source alone, the Holy Scripture, is the believer's standard of truth. In the New Testament, it is the written word of God and that alone to which the Lord Jesus Christ and His apostles refer as the final authority. In the temptation, the Lord Jesus three times resisted Satan, saying, "It is written" as for example, in Matthew 4:4, "he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." In stating "It is written," the Lord used the exact same phrase that is used in the Holy Bible forty six times. The persistence of the repeated phrase underlines its importance. The Lord's total acceptance of the authority of the Old Testament is evident in His words found in Matthew 5:17-18: "Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily, I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled." Other sources of authority condemned People often attempt to give human traditions higher authority than God's Word. This was true of the Jews of Jesus' day. In refuting the errors of the Sadducees, the Scripture records the Lord saying, "Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God" (Matthew 22:29). Christ Jesus continually castigated and rebuked the Pharisees because they made their traditions on a par with the Word of God--corrupting the very basis of truth by equating their traditions with God's Word. So He declared to them in Mark 7:13 "You are making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such things do ye." Since Scripture alone is inspired, it alone is the ultimate authority and it alone is the final judge of Tradition. The Word of the Lord says as a commandment in Proverbs 30:5-6: "Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." is that enough to sustain the Bible as THE ONLY source for a Christian life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 lumberjack, your words are filled with error. I challenge you to pick one topic at a time and I will show you what the Catholic Church teaches on a subject so you can show me (I'm a protestant) why it is wrong. This will better equip you to "witness" to Catholics because you can "attack" what they actually believe and not what you think they believe or have been taught what they believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 exactly how are they filled with error? I'm just wondering... love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 3, 2004 Author Share Posted March 3, 2004 anything not in the Word of God, is not of God...I'm not TRYING to "sound" like a jerk...but it says in Revelation clear enough, Revelation 22:18b, 19"If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." so if its not explicitly in the Bible...I would...hmm...leave it up to you to discern that. and you're right...God does call for us to do good deeds, but they had better be of Him, and not of us, lest we become prideful and puffed up, thinking we are something. and heaven, as you said, is a guarantee to those who follow faithfully till the end...and thats who I was talking about too...so, we agree on that too! because so long as we follow Christ, and live as He did, and follow His word, and don't let anyone deceive us, we're in! and I look forward to that SOOO much. ^_^ Lumberjack, We welcome you to the forum, please take your attack on baptism to another thread. I'll even start one for you. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 (edited) Confession of sins to a priest (a mediator between God and man) [see I Timothy 2:5 - "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" / I Peter 2:5 (speaking of all Christians being a priesthood)] If you want to disprove confession, you won't succeed using the Bible verses you just cited. As for the passage from 1 Timothy you cite, yes, Jesus is the one mediator between God and man. But Christians are also called to be mediators in Him, which is what we do when we pray for others or share the Gospel with them. It's a secondary mediatorship that is ENTIRELY DEPENDENT on Jesus' being the Mediator with God and man. And that's the case with confession of sins to a priest. In the passage from 1 Peter that you cite, when Peter teaches us about the universal priesthood of all believers, he refers to Exodus 19:6, where God speaks of ancient Israel as "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation," a reference to the universal priesthood in the Old Testament "church." But that didn't preclude the existence of the Aaronic and Levitical priesthoods within that universal priesthood. In the same way, we have a universal "royal priesthood" in the New Testament, but we also have an ordained clergy who have priestly authority given to them by Christ to carry out His ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:17-21, John 20:21-23, James 5:16). I can give you even more verses to show you how confession is biblical, if you like. Prayers to dead saints (see Deuteronomy 18:10-12 - "Let no one be found among you who... who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD...") It is NOT necromancy to ask intercession of those in heaven. By consulting the dead, that means trying to get information from the dead, as in the case of seances and stuff. There's a big difference between asking a departed brother in Christ to pray for us and holding a seance. Look, have you seen this? It's the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the best official summary of Catholic teaching you can get. Here's what it says about necromancy: "All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to 'unveil' the future" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2116). And show me where the Bible says that the saints in heaven are dead! Here's what Jesus says about it, in Luke 20: "... that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him" (Luke 20:36-38). Christians who have died are still a part of the Body of Christ; they're closer to God, they're more alive than we are! And "pray" just means "ask", when we're talking about praying to the saints. That's how it used to be used in our language -- a person, in inviting a friend to sit down, might say, "Pray, be seated." Offering of masses, prayers and rosaries for those who suffer in "purgatory" (see Hebrews 9:27 - "...Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.") Do you even know what purgatory is? That passage you cited doesn't even come close to saying there's no purgatory. Purgatory is for those who die in God's grace and mercy but who still have the vestiges of temporal effects due to sin, inordinate attachments to creatures, and whose will isn't fully united with God's will. Those who are in purgatory are going to be in heaven eventually, and God has judged that that's where they should go. But he has also judged that before they can go there, they have to spend some time in purgatory. is THAT in accordance with the BIBLE? The things you claim the Catholic Church teaches aren't in accordance with the Bible, but the things the Church really teaches ARE. Please try to learn about what Catholics believe BEFORE denouncing their beliefs! In the very last commandment in the Bible God resolutely tells us not to add to nor take away from His Word....which pretty much puts it ALONE as the end all be all for a Christian to live by. "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book" -Revelation 22:18-19 Did you read in my previous post about why that interpretation is wrong? His Word is absolutely sufficient in itself. (Psalm 119:160) That says NOTHING about the Bible. You don't seem to realize that "word," when talking about God, often doesn't refer to the Bible but instead to Jesus, inspiration, and the oral preaching of the Gospel (Isaiah 55:10-11, Luke 3:2-3). And yes, it even refers to Sacred Tradition! I think I better break this up into 2 posts. Or better yet, start a new thread. Edited March 3, 2004 by Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 Great response Dave. Now, as Ironmonk requested, if you want to debate/discuss any other topic aside from what this thread is supposed to be about (What is a Christian?) start a new thread. I mean it. You don't want me to have to use my extra buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 3, 2004 Author Share Posted March 3, 2004 I've decided to close this topic because it's drifted to far... Anyone who wants to reply to someone, you'll just have to start another thread or PM them. God Bless, Love in Christ and Mary, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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