mulls Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 no prob, i'm also sorry for my previous tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 but Jake do you understand what i was trying to say now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Because you were once a part of the Catholic Church, and you left it. It hurts because so many people leave. I don't know why it's so personal. I like you. You're family. I'm frustrated that you don't see the beauty of what you once had and left. I echo what Jake said. That's the way it is with all of us, Mulls. It pains us to see that you couldn't see the beautiful thing you had been a part of by being a Catholic and thus left. That's all. We all love you, and we wouldn't say this stuff if we didn't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 2, 2004 Author Share Posted March 2, 2004 i didn't blame the Church once. i'm over it. i'm in Christ now. time to live my life. WORD to me. But bro... I'm concerned.... If you knowingly reject the ones sent by Christ, you reject Christ. Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" 2 Thess 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. 2 Tim 2:2 And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. St. Matt 28:18 11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." St Matt 18:17 (Jesus said) If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Without the Church we do not have Christ. You need to find the Church built by Him. If it's not the Catholic Church, then which is it? God Bless, Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 but Jake do you understand what i was trying to say now? Yes. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 dairygirl, do u have anything to say regarding our responses to ur comments in this thread? just curious..... pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 You can be a Christian and not even realise it. In the lowest sense of a Christian is someone who "does unto others as they'd have them do unto them" Surely you mean you can be someone who acts in a 'Christian like way' by this definition? It cannot possibly be a definition of what is a Christian! There are many people of different faiths who might live by this 'rule' but who would in no way want to be defined as a Christian. I also know a number of people who have very strong political beliefs which results in them living in a 'Christian like way' in that they 'do unto others as they'd have them do unto them' but they would be insulted if you called them Christian and in fact reject all notion of reality of Jesus or the cross or God's love..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 BAPTISM is by NO MEANS necessary for salvation...we SHOULD do it if we have the opportunity, but I'm not going to hell if I don't. REMEMBER the thief next to Christ? Salvation comes thru CHRIST ALONE... "I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life....and NOONE comes to the FATHER BUT BY ME" ....right? and "there is but ONE mediator between man and God, which is Christ" there is NOTHING I could EVER do to make myself look better in the eyes of the Lord..."for my righteousness is as filthy rags" and "we are saved by GRACE, thru FAITH...NOT of works, lest any man should boast" I don't post some opinion or doctrine held by the church I attend, I post nothing but SOLID WORD OF THE LIVING GOD, sharper than a two edged sword. and if anyone REALLY has a problem with this, is it because I go against some teaching of MAN, or because they don't read the Bible for themselves enough? after all, it DOES say in Proverbs,"Rebuke not a scorner, for he will hate you"...."Reprove a wise man, and he will grow in wisdom." and if anyone needs the scriptures, I can find them all...I just don't remember them off the top of my melon. oh and one more thing, you SHOULD realize you ARE a Christian...since the ONLY way you CAN be a Christian is by having Christ as your Lord and Saviour! love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 THe Good Thief was baptism by desire. I became a Christian because I was baptised christian by the faith of my parents, and in confirmation accepted the adult life of a Christian. Jesus told the Apostles to baptise and we have baptised ever since. I can do a lot of things to be better ( not look better) in the eyes of the Lord. I can obey Him by keeping His commandments and doing works of mercy, I can worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, and I can recieve Him in the Sacraments. We have no problem looking up the Scriptures. :cyclops: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 THe Good Thief was baptism by desire. I became a Christian because I was baptised christian by the faith of my parents, and in confirmation accepted the adult life of a Christian. Jesus told the Apostles to baptise and we have baptised ever since. I can do a lot of things to be better ( not look better) in the eyes of the Lord. I can obey Him by keeping His commandments and doing works of mercy, I can worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, and I can recieve Him in the Sacraments. We have no problem looking up the Scriptures. baptism by desire? where is that found in the Bible? just wondering... as a Christian, we should do good deeds BECAUSE we are going to heaven...not because we think that our good deeds will buy us a ticket in...cuz Christ already did that. thats what I meant...I mean yeah, the Lord DOES delight when we do good and follow His word and live in His will, and study the Bible and apply it to our lives as we should... and a big AMEN! to worshipping in spirit and in truth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 There are a lot of concepts not listed in the Bible explicitly. I do not do good deeds because I am going to heaven, since I don't know if I'll get there or not. Heaven is not a guarentee. Heaven is a hope, if I endure til the end. I do good deeds because God requires them. Good deeds are not a ticket to heaven, but we will not get there without them either. Christ died and the gates of heaven are opened to all who follow him faithfully to the end. His opening the door does not neccessarily mean we are going to get in, we have the possibility of getting in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 BAPTISM is by NO MEANS necessary for salvation...we SHOULD do it if we have the opportunity, but I'm not going to hell if I don't. Well, the Bible disagrees with you: John 1:33 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism. John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism. John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5. Acts 8:36 - Philip recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures. Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism. 2 Kings 5:14 - Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism. Isaiah 44:3 - the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them. Ezek. 36:25-27 - the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit You say you won't go to hell if you don't get baptized. How do you know that? Especially if a person knows they should but still doesn't? REMEMBER the thief next to Christ? Salvation comes thru CHRIST ALONE... "I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life....and NOONE comes to the FATHER BUT BY ME" ....right? and "there is but ONE mediator between man and God, which is Christ" Baptism does NOT take the place of Christ. By His death on the cross, Christ won for us countless graces. But the question is, how are those graces to be of any benefit to us? How do we unlock them? Well, baptism is the key! Like Cmom said, the case of the good thief involved baptism by desire. there is NOTHING I could EVER do to make myself look better in the eyes of the Lord..."for my righteousness is as filthy rags" and "we are saved by GRACE, thru FAITH...NOT of works, lest any man should boast" Again, baptism isn't just something we do to in hopes that God will save us. Read what I wrote earlier about baptism in this post. The only people who are sure of being saved just because they were baptized are those who die immediately after baptism (which surely is a rare thing). Baptism is done in obedience to Christ's command, and through it, Christ brings about a regeneration in us. It's not something we do to earn our salvation. Btw, the quotes from the Bible you use show that you don't know what the Church really teaches. The Church doesn't teach that we earn our salvation by doing good works. Not at all! But they DO play an indispensable role in our salvation. In the book of James, we learn that faith without works is dead. Also, the passage from Ephesians you cite does NOT say that works don't play a role in our salvation. It's saying we can't work our way to heaven. And as for the passage from Isaiah you cite, you're taking it out of context. But that's for another time. don't post some opinion or doctrine held by the church I attend, I post nothing but SOLID WORD OF THE LIVING GOD, sharper than a two edged sword. and if anyone REALLY has a problem with this, is it because I go against some teaching of MAN, or because they don't read the Bible for themselves enough? You may post the Word of God, but how do you know you interpret it correctly? There's nothing unbiblical about the Catholic Church -- it's the only COMPLETELY biblical Church -- the same Church that Christ founded and that has been faithfully handing on His teachings for 2000 years. You're apparently not a Catholic, and so your church hasn't been around that long, and it certainly wasn't founded by Jesus Christ. And where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is to be the sole authority for a Christian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism. are you sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 are you sure? What else could it be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 Yep. Because at the end of Matthew Jesus says to preach and baptise all nations. It is consistant with the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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