I Need Help

[miche11e]

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I just don't have time. I am busily preparing my house for wyd pilgrims from a little island near mauritious(sp?) helping organise food and activities for the 260+ pilgrims visiting our parish for days in the diocese, organising the 10 kids and 1 husband who are not coming to sydney with us and packing for myself and the 3 who are! so if anybody here has time and inclination here is the post that needs response. pm me if you would like the link to the actual discussion.



[color="#0000FF"]I was bought up in the Presbyterian church, and always had a longing for the things of God. I fell away from God for a couple of years in my late teens, before making a commitment when I was 20.

When DH and I became Christians, we had been (and continued to be) friends with a couple who held pretty 'radical' beliefs. They believed (shock, horror), that the Bible was the only written authority on God. And, that Jesus Christ was THE (read ONLY) head of the church.

This couple introduced us to our first experience of the New Testament Church. The TRUE, ORIGINAL church (as recorded in the Bible) wasn't divided by denominations. They didn't have a hierarchy. (There were elders, but they were those who guided, not dictated the beliefs of the members. They were no higher up the chain than anyone else.) They met in each others homes (not elaborate buildings). The churches were defined by locality, not doctine (eg. the church at Corinth). Bondia described it beautifully:

[quote]My interpretation of 'church' is simply a gathering of people who follow Jesus (as per the early believers) and I get really frazzled at all the rules and regulations we see in churches today. So if I were going to save some money and take a trip somewhere to worship Jesus, I'd be more inclined to head overseas and visit the underground churches in Asia or worship out in the fields somewhere in Africa. Just more my thing, that's all - and far less complicated![/quote]

Now, I am not anti-established churches. I have learned a lot in them. We are affiliated with one now. But there is a lot to be said for the New Testament churches.

1. Money that was given could go to the "widows and orphans", rather than building maintenance, and pastors wages.

2. Rather than one "leader" standing at the front teaching (much like in modern schools - but that's a whole different story........), the people learn from each other, in what is more akin to todays cell groups. (Cell groups are actually a lot closer to the original church, than what we call "church" today.)

3. There doesn't need to be a separation of individuals by age groups, such as creche for the preschoolers, Sunday school for the children, youth group for the teens etc. God made us in families, of varying ages, not in litters where we learn from our peers. Children need adults to learn how to become adults, not children to learn how to become children. Our kids can interact with and learn from those of any age.

4. The Bible tells us parents are responsible for their childrens' spiritual upbringing. Do you know exactly what is being taught in your kids Sunday school classes???

5. This structure of church greatly reduces the opportunity for the horrific cases of abuse we see in the churches today.

6. It is far easier to challenge (and have challenged) our beliefs. What better way to grow, than to lead one another back to God's Word?

Having said all this.......We are currently involved in a church. God is certainly not limited in how we approach Him. The question is, is what we are being taught, of God? The only way to know is to look to His instruction book. It is truly miraculous how that one book contains ALL we need to know for life (I agree, that the Holy Spirit leads us, but what I am saying is that NOTHING the Spirit tells us will EVER contradict the Bible.)

EVERY SINGLE church on the face of this planet has wrong doctines (and I am including New Testament churches here). We are human. We cannot know everything. And, like it or not, our beliefs are often coloured by our personal wants.

This is why the prosperity gospel has such a huge following. It is also why so many Christians are willing to abort their unborn children every month by taking a contraceptive that, in fact, causes micro-abortions. And there are many, many more......

I don't think a Christian can be defined by his or her denomination. But I do think a denomination can be defined as being Christian-based. (Not Christian, per say. Only individual people can be Christians.) Of course, this brings us to the definition of Christian. Does in mean simply "follower of Christ"? If so, then Buddhists, Muslims, New Agers, and others are "Christian". They all claim Jesus Christ in one form or another.

But what if "Christian" has a deeper meaning? Well, for starters there are the questions "is He the Son of God?" "is he, being the Son of God, in fact God Himself, appearing to us in human form?" Is He "The Word (The Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God)"? Were His teachings 100% accurate?

If he WAS (and IS) God, His teachings would HAVE to be spot on. So what did He teach?

1. Just before He was crucified He made a statement that to me, at first, sounded really harsh. In reference to his (Holy???) mother He said "who is my mother"? This implies, not that He didn't care for her, but rather, that, among all disciples, she was nothing "special".

2. He died ONCE for all our sins. He said "it is FINISHED". There is absolutely NOTHING we can add to this. We do try and do good. The Bible tells us to "be Holy, because He is Holy". But any reward we receive for this is known to Him and Him alone until we join Him in Heaven.

3. He NEVER, not ONCE mentions a place called Purgatory.

4. He taught us, when we pray to say
"Our Father (the only true Father, not a name given to a priest, and THE one we should pray to),
who art in Heaven (not represented in a Pope),
Hallowed be YOUR name (Holy is HIS name ALONE - not Mary's),
THY kingdom come
THY will be done
On Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread (what we NEED, not the prosperity stuff)
And forgive us our trespasses (remember, we are praying to GOD alone here, not a priest)
As we forgive those who trespass against us (our only right to forgive, is against those who have wronged us - it is His job to forgive the actual individual sins of others, as they are sins against our Holy God.)
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil (it truly saddens me how in so many Christian circles today, so many will let themselves get to the very edge of sin, in the belief that they can resist in the end (eg. the dating scene so prevalent in youth groups). They are actually leading themselves into temptation.)
For THINE is THE Kingdom
THE power
and THE glory (all these things belong to Him alone)
For ever and ever (NEVER ending, NEVER changing)
Amen

Are YOU, as a Catholic, Presbyterian, Evangelical, Anglican, Pentecostal (etc, etc) a Christian??

Why not ask our LORD Jesus Christ? Then check the Bible. Make sure your answer adds up.[/color]

[Deb]

[quote name='miche11e' post='1590524' date='Jul 3 2008, 07:21 PM']--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just don't have time. I am busily preparing my house for wyd pilgrims from a little island near mauritious(sp?) helping organise food and activities for the 260+ pilgrims visiting our parish for days in the diocese, organising the 10 kids and 1 husband who are not coming to sydney with us and packing for myself and the 3 who are! so if anybody here has time and inclination here is the post that needs response. pm me if you would like the link to the actual discussion.



[color="#0000ff"]I was bought up in the Presbyterian church, and always had a longing for the things of God. I fell away from God for a couple of years in my late teens, before making a commitment when I was 20.

When DH and I became Christians, we had been (and continued to be) friends with a couple who held pretty 'radical' beliefs. They believed (shock, horror), that the Bible was the only written authority on God. And, that Jesus Christ was THE (read ONLY) head of the church.

This couple introduced us to our first experience of the New Testament Church. The TRUE, ORIGINAL church (as recorded in the Bible) wasn't divided by denominations. They didn't have a hierarchy. (There were elders, but they were those who guided, not dictated the beliefs of the members. They were no higher up the chain than anyone else.) They met in each others homes (not elaborate buildings). The churches were defined by locality, not doctine (eg. the church at Corinth). Bondia described it beautifully:

[b][i]No, there weren't any denominations because the church started with the Apostles and the disciples baptizing in the spirit and teaching the word of Jesus Christ. If you do read the New Testament, they refer continually to the old Testament also. They met where they could meet so they would not be killed, they could not come out into the open (THE CHURCH) until about the same time that the New Testament was put together. They had presbyters (PRIESTS) just like they leading up until the time of Christ. They were jews you know. The words of the gospel were written and taught by the leaders of each specific community. Have you read the letters of Paul? The New Testament specifically refers to tradition as well. It is easy to dismiss that though if you choose to do so. The Church was the Catholic Church which means universal. One thing Christ was very clear on is that their should be unity. There was unity until Luther decided to make himself his own little branch of the church and then the blossoming into the 30,000 different denominations that there are today. The Catholic Mass is exactly the same one that has been recorded, in historical documents as being said in the year 30 a.d. which culminates with the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus himself repeated many times that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood to become one with him. [/i][/b]



Now, I am not anti-established churches. I have learned a lot in them. We are affiliated with one now. But there is a lot to be said for the New Testament churches.

1. Money that was given could go to the "widows and orphans", rather than building maintenance, and pastors wages.

[b]The Catholic Church is the single largest charitable organization in the world and has been since it's inception. No Church and no Country gives as much money as the Church and it gets its money from its members. Every Catholic church also supports missions and outreach programs that benefit the poor, the sick, the the homeless and the elderly. What does your New Testament Church do?[/b]

2. Rather than one "leader" standing at the front teaching (much like in modern schools - but that's a whole different story........), the people learn from each other, in what is more akin to todays cell groups. (Cell groups are actually a lot closer to the original church, than what we call "church" today.)

[b]I would prefer to get my teaching from an educated priest who has taken vows, been ordained by the succession of the Apostles, chosen and marked by God, and is sacrificing his entire life to the teaching of the word of God and assisting in the spiritual shepherding of God's children than some guy who went on the internet and answered the "How do I start one of these churches in my neighborhood." (yes, I looked at the website)
[/b]
[b]Jesus told his disciples that he would be going but the Father would be sending someone to be with them that would never leave them. He sent the Holy Spirit to guide them and to tell them what to say and where to say it. Jesus gave that to Peter to found his church and the Holy Spirit has continued to guide the Catholic Church. Regardless of man's sins and shortcomings within the church, Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against it. They haven't in 2000 years. They never will. I like knowing that the Holy Spirit is still guiding the ones who teach me. [/b]

3. There doesn't need to be a separation of individuals by age groups, such as creche for the preschoolers, Sunday school for the children, youth group for the teens etc. God made us in families, of varying ages, not in litters where we learn from our peers. Children need adults to learn how to become adults, not children to learn how to become children. Our kids can interact with and learn from those of any age.

[b]The Cathlic Church does not have Sunday school. Children attend with their parents from the time they are born. We have faith formation and classes outside of Mass times. We also have Mass every day of the week. We don't just reserve it for Sunday. [/b]

4. The Bible tells us parents are responsible for their childrens' spiritual upbringing. Do you know exactly what is being taught in your kids Sunday school classes???

[b]SEE above. Yes, I know exactly what is taught in the classes for children at my church because parents are active in the teaching and the subject matter is known to all. [/b]

5. This structure of church greatly reduces the opportunity for the horrific cases of abuse we see in the churches today.

[b]That is croutons. There is thousands more abuse in public schools than in the Church. Satan will use whatever weaknesses he can to try and destroy the Church. Division is his best weapon. He only gets away with one thing for so long and then it comes out. Then it stops. Don't use that as a reason to not go to a real Church. [/b]

6. It is far easier to challenge (and have challenged) our beliefs. What better way to grow, than to lead one another back to God's Word?

[b]No idea what that means. Everyone in my Church works very hard to live by God's word. [/b]

Having said all this.......We are currently involved in a church. God is certainly not limited in how we approach Him. The question is, is what we are being taught, of God? The only way to know is to look to His instruction book. It is truly miraculous how that one book contains ALL we need to know for life (I agree, that the Holy Spirit leads us, but what I am saying is that NOTHING the Spirit tells us will EVER contradict the Bible.)

EVERY SINGLE church on the face of this planet has wrong doctines (and I am including New Testament churches here). We are human. We cannot know everything. And, like it or not, our beliefs are often coloured by our personal wants.

[b]No, every single church doesn't. The Church that was set up by Jesus Christ as the head, built on Peter is the Catholic Church. It definitely lives by scripture but, not scripture alone as the Lord taught us. It is in the bible, if you know it and can understand it, you will find it. The Catholic Church is denounced all over the world because of its refusal to back down on issues like contraception, stem cell research, abortion, homosexual marriage etc. It is because the Church refuses to change to match the personal wants of this secular society that so many try to take it down. [/b]


This is why the prosperity gospel has such a huge following. It is also why so many Christians are willing to abort their unborn children every month by taking a contraceptive that, in fact, causes micro-abortions. And there are many, many more......

I don't think a Christian can be defined by his or her denomination. But I do think a denomination can be defined as being Christian-based. (Not Christian, per say. Only individual people can be Christians.) Of course, this brings us to the definition of Christian. Does in mean simply "follower of Christ"? If so, then Buddhists, Muslims, New Agers, and others are "Christian". They all claim Jesus Christ in one form or another.

But what if "Christian" has a deeper meaning? Well, for starters there are the questions "is He the Son of God?" "is he, being the Son of God, in fact God Himself, appearing to us in human form?" Is He "The Word (The Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God)"? Were His teachings 100% accurate?

If he WAS (and IS) God, His teachings would HAVE to be spot on. So what did He teach?

[b]There is no debate. Jesus Christ is the WORD and the WORD was made flesh. Jesus is God. [/b]

1. Just before He was crucified He made a statement that to me, at first, sounded really harsh. In reference to his (Holy???) mother He said "who is my mother"? This implies, not that He didn't care for her, but rather, that, among all disciples, she was nothing "special".

[b]Actually I think you could interpret that she was just as "special" as his disciples. He went on to say, "[color="#0000ff"]For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." His mother always did exactly what the will of his father was.
[/color][/b]

2. He died ONCE for all our sins. He said "it is FINISHED". There is absolutely NOTHING we can add to this. We do try and do good. The Bible tells us to "be Holy, because He is Holy". But any reward we receive for this is known to Him and Him alone until we join Him in Heaven.

[b]Christ was the Passover sacrifice for our sins. The old covenant is finished. The new one is about to begin. There is a lot we can add to this. Jesus was then resurrected and he had a lot to say after his death. As Scott Hahn explains on this: [color="#000000"]This fits with John's gospel, because as soon as Jesus was introduced in chapter 1 of the fourth gospel by John the Baptist, what did John say? He said, "Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." And here is the lamb, headed for the altar of the cross, dying as a righteous firstborn and as an unblemished lamb. I believe that it's best to say in light of scripture that the sacrifice of Christ did not begin with the first spike, it didn't begin when the cross was sunk into the ground. I began in the upper room. That's where the sacrifice began. And I would also suggest that the Passover meal by which Jesus initiated the new Covenant in his own blood did not end in the upper room, but at calvary. It's all of one piece. The sacrifice begins in the upper room with the institution of the Eucharist and it ends at calvary. Calvary begins with the Eucharist. The Eucharist ends at Calvary. But in another way of thinking, it ain't over yet! Cause it ain't over till it's over. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8, "Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed, therefore"_what?_we don't need to have any more sacrifice? Therefore we don't need to have any more ritual, therefore all we have to do is have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and invite him into our hearts and everything else is taken care of? No, he's too knowledgeable about the Old Testament to say any of that. He says, "Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed; let us therefore celebrate the feast." What feast? The whole Passover feast. It's not complete yet. What do you mean?That brings us to the Eucharist.
[/color][/b]
3. He NEVER, not ONCE mentions a place called Purgatory.

[color="#0000ff"][b]Thus, [/b][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"][color="#0000ff"][b]Jesus Christ[/b][/color][/url][color="#0000ff"][b] declares ([/b][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/mat012.htm#verse32"][color="#0000ff"][b]Matthew 12:32[/b][/color][/url][color="#0000ff"][b]): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the [/b][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14144a.htm"][color="#0000ff"][b]Son of man[/b][/color][/url][color="#0000ff"][b], it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the [/b][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm"][color="#0000ff"][b]Holy Ghost[/b][/color][/url][color="#0000ff"][b], it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come."[/b]
[/color][color="#0000ff"]That means that some sins can be removed and some cannot in the world to come.

[b]It is pretty clear in Corinthians 3:11-15 "For other foundation no [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm"]man[/url] can lay, but that which is laid; which is [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"]Christ Jesus[/url]. Now if any [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm"]man[/url] build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm"]man's[/url] work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm"]man's[/url] work, of what sort it is. If any [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm"]man's[/url] work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm"]man's[/url] work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

Man will be purified by fire. If no one can look upon the face of God nor enter heaven unless they are pure, do you really think that you can just die and stand before God in all your pathetic sinlines?s. No one on this earth will die without sin. No one on this earth will be purified enough to go directly to the face of GOD.

[/b]

[/color]4. He taught us, when we pray to say
"Our Father (the only true Father, not a name given to a priest, and THE one we should pray to),
who art in Heaven (not represented in a Pope),
Hallowed be YOUR name (Holy is HIS name ALONE - not Mary's),
THY kingdom come
THY will be done
On Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread (what we NEED, not the prosperity stuff)
And forgive us our trespasses (remember, we are praying to GOD alone here, not a priest)
As we forgive those who trespass against us (our only right to forgive, is against those who have wronged us - it is His job to forgive the actual individual sins of others, as they are sins against our Holy God.)
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil (it truly saddens me how in so many Christian circles today, so many will let themselves get to the very edge of sin, in the belief that they can resist in the end (eg. the dating scene so prevalent in youth groups). They are actually leading themselves into temptation.)
Amen

[b]I don't know anyone who prays to a PRIEST. Peter was the first Pope, he was given the keys to the kingdom. You may want to read up on exactly what having the keys to a kingdom meant in those times. You will be greatly suprised and maybe a little embarrassed at how little you do know. That part of the prayer has nothing to do with the Pope anyway so no idea why you stuck that in there.
[/b]
[b]Mary is not part of the Our Father either. You may want to reflect on what role she played though. The MOTHER of God ring a bell? You may wish to ask yourself what feelings Christ has for his mother and how he will view yours.
[/b]
[b]Our Daily Bread. The bread of life. The body of Christ. Think about that for a minute or two. Foretelling of what is to come.
[/b]
[b]The doxology was not in the early manuscripts of any of the gospels and there were at least ten variations on it until it was shortened and added at the end. It was probably added to the Lord's prayer at some point for congregational worship. [/b]

Are YOU, as a Catholic, Presbyterian, Evangelical, Anglican, Pentecostal (etc, etc) a Christian??

[b]So, how do you define being a Christian? A follower of Christ? I can tell you that I am a Roman Catholic. I can tell you that I attend Mass five days a week. I can tell you I spend two hours a week in adoration of my Lord. I can tell you that I tithe to my church. I can tell you that I give generously to other charities. I can tell you that I work with the poor and the meek. I can tell you that I go to confession every three weeks and confess my sins to Christ through my Priest and I am absolved. I can tell you that I read scripture and pray at least two hours a day. I can tell you that our Lord Jesus Christ called my name and delivered me to the Catholic Church. I can tell you that I have a personal relationship with him. I can tell you I Love and Fear the Lord. I can tell you that I feel I will never be holy. I can tell you I am a sinner. I can tell you that I pray for the conversion of all souls to find the Lord Jesus. I can tell you that I am not in the least bit worried about belonging to the Catholic Church and I can tell you that I know in my heart, my soul, my mind and every fiber of my being that the Lord is well pleased with my belonging to the Catholic Church.
I cannot tell you what he thinks about any other person or any other Christian sect or denomination. I cannot tell you if I will even make it to heaven because it is so much more than just saying I believe in Jesus. Jesus himself said there will be many who call him Lord and do good things in his name that will never make it to heaven. It is not for me to judge anyone or to become religiously self righteous because that offends God.
[/b]

Why not ask our LORD Jesus Christ? Then check the Bible. Make sure your answer adds up.[/color][/quote]

[b]Wonderful suggestion. Let me know how that works out for you. [/b]

[XIX]

Deb, you are quickly becoming one of my favorite posters.

[Archaeology cat]

Wow, Deb.

[EstoVir_TheWay_4]

wow

[LouisvilleFan]

Can't wait to see what happens when those 260+ pilgrims show up.

[Deb]