abercius24 Posted July 4, 2008 Author Share Posted July 4, 2008 [quote name='mortify' post='1590218' date='Jul 3 2008, 02:03 PM']Is this whole argument basically summed up this way: i) Abericus believes Judaism is still efficacious for salvation ii) Apotheoun believes Judaism is no longer efficacious because the Church is the true Israel ?[/quote] i) No. Judaism is not efficacious for salvation. But I do believe Rabbinic Jews have the same value in God's eyes as they did before Christianity (as the documents of Vatican II teach). And because of that, we should have as much of an appreciation of our relationship with them as we do the Prophets and the Patriarchs. ii) Apotheoun disagrees with this position because he believes (as the Eastern Church teaches) that the Patriarchs and Prophets worshiped God in His Triune nature (as the Trinity) which Rabbinic Jews refuse to do. As a result, Apotheoun believes that Rabbinic Jews are apostates to their own ancient faith and therefore are not deserving of recognition as brothers of faith to the Catholic Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 [quote name='abercius24' post='1590949' date='Jul 4 2008, 01:08 AM']i) No. Judaism is not efficacious for salvation. But I do believe Rabbinic Jews have the same value in God's eyes as they did before Christianity (as the documents of Vatican II teach). And because of that, we should have as much of an appreciation of our relationship with them as we do the Prophets and the Patriarchs.[/quote] What Vatican II document(s) do you have in mind? How can God value Rabbinic Judaism when it rejects the Messiah Who fulfills it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 (edited) Eastern Christians view Rabbinic Judaism in the same way that we view any heresy against the Trinity and the incarnation (e.g., Adoptionism, Docetism, Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, et al.), for as scripture teaches: "Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. [b]No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also[/b]" (cf. 1 John 2:22-23). The anciient Patriarchs and Prophets conversed with the pre-incarnate Logos, and so they worshipped the Father, through the Son, in the power of the Holy Spirit. The religious system created by the Rabbis after the time of Christ is no different than the systems devised by other heretics. Edited July 4, 2008 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 None of you has any place making a judgment on the faith of the Jews. What's it to you? You don't know their hearts. You don't know their relationship with God. You are not fellow members of their religion nor do you share a culture with them. You are placing a judgment on a people that you know very little about and with whom you have no shared relationship. Wow, the nerve. You guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1591570' date='Jul 4 2008, 07:26 PM']None of you has any place making a judgment on the faith of the Jews. What's it to you? You don't know their hearts. You don't know their relationship with God. You are not fellow members of their religion nor do you share a culture with them. You are placing a judgment on a people that you know very little about and with whom you have no shared relationship. Wow, the nerve. You guys.[/quote] Are you being serious or sarcastic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1591570' date='Jul 4 2008, 05:26 PM']None of you has any place making a judgment on the faith of the Jews. What's it to you? You don't know their hearts. You don't know their relationship with God. You are not fellow members of their religion nor do you share a culture with them. You are placing a judgment on a people that you know very little about and with whom you have no shared relationship. Wow, the nerve. You guys.[/quote] I haven't judged anyone's heart; instead, I have judged a theological system that arose after the time of Christ (i.e., Rabbinic Judaism), and which was specifically formulated in opposition to the Orthodox faith. I stand by everything that I have said in this thread. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1591821' date='Jul 5 2008, 01:41 AM']I haven't judged anyone's heart; instead, I have judged a theological system that arose after the time of Christ (i.e., Rabbinic Judaism), and which was specifically formulated in opposition to the Orthodox faith. I stand by everything that I have said in this thread. God bless, Todd[/quote] Uh-huh. But because I like you, I'm not going to argue with you. We've already determined from previous threads that we differ enormously in our views on Judaism and Jewish theology. I just want people to lay off them. They have suffered enough in their history without people (seemingly) attacking/judging/inspecting their relationship with God, along with everything else they get attacked for. You and I have to save our collective energy for the topic of Islam. Edited July 5, 2008 by Madame Vengier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Madame V, what do you make of Zionism? Good or bad? Just curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 [quote name='mortify' post='1591901' date='Jul 5 2008, 09:21 AM']Madame V, what do you make of Zionism? Good or bad? Just curious [/quote] I'm not going to answer that. I don't even know what Zionism is but I know that people like me who are staunchly pro-Israel get accused of being "Zionists". I don't even want to get into a discussion about Zionism. It has nothing to do with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abercius24 Posted July 5, 2008 Author Share Posted July 5, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1591570' date='Jul 4 2008, 07:26 PM']None of you has any place making a judgment on the faith of the Jews. What's it to you? You don't know their hearts. You don't know their relationship with God. You are not fellow members of their religion nor do you share a culture with them. You are placing a judgment on a people that you know very little about and with whom you have no shared relationship. Wow, the nerve. You guys.[/quote] But we do share a culture, and from my position as a Western Catholic, a relationship. Half of the Bible and half of our history is shared! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 [quote name='abercius24' post='1592105' date='Jul 5 2008, 01:12 PM']But we do share a culture, and from my position as a Western Catholic, a relationship. Half of the Bible and half of our history is shared![/quote] I was not referring to a history. I was referring to a PERSONAL relationship. Whatever. Nobody has any place to judge their relationship with God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1592113' date='Jul 5 2008, 01:16 PM']I was not referring to a history. I was referring to a PERSONAL relationship. Whatever. Nobody has any place to judge their relationship with God.[/quote] True, and that can be applied to any religious people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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