Church Can Exclude Autistic Boy: Judge Decides

[havok579257]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1588672' date='Jul 1 2008, 09:36 PM']So... masses in one's home are less salvific than masses in church? [/quote]


Did not realize communion was being offered at home and the mass was being held via satallite. Is there a priest at the home doing the communion while the mass is happening?

If something like this is offered and the church helps pay for and set up the via webcam or whatever, then that's fine. As long as communion is offered in this instance.

This is getting hard to go off of since I only have this article. So if someone could please post this article everyone is talking about that the church is offering other options it would help.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1588713' date='Jul 1 2008, 09:27 PM']In one second he could fly ACROSS the room and kill a baby? How hard is it for people with babies to not sit by the person in the cry room. Your telling me that 2 men would sit there and watch as the person went across the room and kill the baby. More to the point, why bring up killing babies? He's been in mass before and has not killed anyone yet you jump to this conclusion? WHy?[/quote]
Most cry rooms are not the size of gymnasiums. In fact, the ones I have experienced are actually rather small. Also, you realize that when people flail and react violently in general, they don't do it slowly and cautiously. Also, in case you haven't noticed, most ushers aren't 18 year old varsity football players. They tend to be older, and as a brash generalization, older men do not move as fast as younger men. Also, in case you didn't know, babies tend to be fragile. Have you ever heard of Shaken Baby Syndrome? Me too. Have you heard of Shaken Full Grown Person Syndrome? Me either. One hit that might bruise an adult or adolescent could kill a baby.
Why bring up killing babies? Well, that's where the highest concentration of babies would be - in the cry room. I'm not saying that it [i]would[/i] happen; just that it could, and might.
I'll tell you this much: if I had an infant, I would not feel comfortable with an adult male, 6 foot something, 220 something, prone to violent outbursts, sitting a few feet away.

[CatholicCid]

Havok, I think you are slightly confusing one of the alternatives HomeSchoolMom offered. I believe the "Mass in their home" would mean that a Priest would come and offer the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass in their home for them.
The other option said would be a livefeed of the Mass said in the 'Fellowship Hall', which I assume would be the Parish Hall adjacent the Church (or Basement of the Church). An Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion could promptly bring the Eucharist to the family straight from the Church.

That being said, I believe that, though a difficult case, the Pastor in this situation had to put the physical safety of the entire flock over that of the convience of one family. The urination alluded to in the judgement would not worry me as much as the actual physical danger mentioned, including hitting a small child, grabbing a teenage girl and pulling her into his lap, and bumping into the elderly.
I really cannot concieve why the alternatives the Parish seemed to offer would be considered worse then having to use physical force to constrain the child.

I was happy to read though that:
[quote]Speaking on behalf of the parish this afternoon, Jane Marrin, director of pastoral planning for the St Cloud Diocese, said that St Joseph "is involved in mediation with the family, [b]and it's the parish's hope that we can come to a mutually acceptable solution. That has been the goal all along for the parish, and the judge's ruling doesn't rule out."[/b][/quote]
It's nice that, even after being put through all these legal tatics and prevailing, that the Parish is still willing to work out a solution that would be in the best interest for the boy and the Parish.

-Edit-

Havok, I believe that Apotheoun was kind enough to search for and repost the original article and discussion that was had on here in his post on Page 1 of this topic.

Edited July 2, 2008 by CatholicCid

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1588716' date='Jul 1 2008, 09:30 PM']Did not realize communion was being offered at home and the mass was being held via satallite. Is there a priest at the home doing the communion while the mass is happening?[/quote]
Are you fawning ignorance, or have you really never heard of things like EWTN?

[quote]This is getting hard to go off of since I only have this article. So if someone could please post this article everyone is talking about that the church is offering other options it would help.[/quote]
There's this lovely thing called...oh, forget it. Here:
[url="http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4885322"]http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4885322[/url]
[url="http://www.huliq.com/60382/pope-benedict-xvi-urged-provide-guidelines-after-autism-church-ban"]http://www.huliq.com/60382/pope-benedict-x...tism-church-ban[/url]
[url="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24920240/"]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24920240/[/url]
Result of a 15 second google search.
By the way, you can see from the picture in the last article that the mother would probably not be able to constrain him much, if at all.

[havok579257]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1588733' date='Jul 1 2008, 10:43 PM']Are you fawning ignorance, or have you really never heard of things like EWTN?
There's this lovely thing called...oh, forget it. Here:
[url="http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4885322"]http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4885322[/url]
[url="http://www.huliq.com/60382/pope-benedict-xvi-urged-provide-guidelines-after-autism-church-ban"]http://www.huliq.com/60382/pope-benedict-x...tism-church-ban[/url]
[url="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24920240/"]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24920240/[/url]
Result of a 15 second google search.
By the way, you can see from the picture in the last article that the mother would probably not be able to constrain him much, if at all.[/quote]


No need to be a jerk. I am just coming back to the church and am still learning many things about it. I had never heard of this before. Also I am trying to learn about as much as I can but it does take time.

[MissyP89]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1588619' date='Jul 1 2008, 08:47 PM']So because he has a mental handicap we should just forfit his salvation. WHat's more important, someone accidently exposing himself and upsetting parishoners or the person's immortal soul?[/quote]

I don't know about you, Havok, but the God I worship is a God of mercy...

[Lil Red]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1588733' date='Jul 1 2008, 08:43 PM']Are you fawning ignorance, or have you really never heard of things like EWTN?
There's this lovely thing called...oh, forget it. Here:
[url="http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4885322"]http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4885322[/url]
[url="http://www.huliq.com/60382/pope-benedict-xvi-urged-provide-guidelines-after-autism-church-ban"]http://www.huliq.com/60382/pope-benedict-x...tism-church-ban[/url]
[url="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24920240/"]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24920240/[/url]
Result of a 15 second google search.
By the way, you can see from the picture in the last article that the mother would probably not be able to constrain him much, if at all.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
CHARITY
The infused supernatural virtue by which a person loves God above all things for his own sake, and [b]loves others for God's sake.[/b]

so havok is having a hard time understanding this. so what? why don't we be charitable in our attitudes please? thanks.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1588716' date='Jul 1 2008, 11:30 PM']Did not realize communion was being offered at home and the mass was being held via satallite. Is there a priest at the home doing the communion while the mass is happening?

If something like this is offered and the church helps pay for and set up the via webcam or whatever, then that's fine. As long as communion is offered in this instance.

This is getting hard to go off of since I only have this article. So if someone could please post this article everyone is talking about that the church is offering other options it would help.[/quote]
a mass at home would involve the priest coming to the home and saying mass... the whole mass, right there, not by satelite or webcam. if the mass was being offered by webcam or whatever, I am sure they would have a priest or an extraordinary minister come to offer communion also... but if they're offering mass at home the priest actually comes and prays the whole mass. a private mass like that would probably take no more than a half hour.

[Apotheoun]

The Mass at home idea was a good one, and I really do not see why the family rejected that option.

[Veritas]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1588534' date='Jul 1 2008, 05:55 PM']But you can't treat someone handicapped the same as everyone else. If I peed on the floor, then its intentional. If someone who can't control it does, then its not the same. Same with children. We should not treat a 3 y/o the same as a 45 y/o.

Note: This does not directly reference the article.[/quote]

+

The problem with your argument is that it rests on a notion of "intentionality" equalling acceptability.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1588864' date='Jul 2 2008, 05:45 AM']The Mass at home idea was a good one, and I really do not see why the family rejected that option.[/quote]
Me either. The home Masses I've had have been very nice.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1588598' date='Jul 2 2008, 02:26 AM']Yeah but he's autistic which if you read up on the condition, it means he exists in his own world. He can't comprehend the world around him. Even if he did pee on the floor, it was not intentional. An example of autism is people with autism can't put together that a smile means someone's happy. It just doesn't connect for them.

So even if he dropped his pants and did pee, the likely hood he was doing it knowing not to do it is slim to none.[/quote]

We don't exist in our own world. We do struggle to comprehend what other people are saying and doing, but we still actively engage with the world around us.

I wet myself because I can't control it, along with a lot of other autistic people. I have also attempted to undress in a public place before now. That wasn't intentional. It was because I was feeling uncomfortably hot, sweaty, shaky, and nauseous (I was disorientated by some fluorescent lights and the movement of other people in the room) and my brain told me that to cool down I should remove my blouse and my skirt and lie down on the nice cold linoleum floor. There was a rationale behind my behaviour, but to the other people in the room (whom I'd completely forgotten about) it must have looked like I was stripping naked for no apparent reason.

Nothing like this has ever happened to me in church. If the church is overly crowded and I know that I'm going to have difficulty, I leave and stand in the narthex, watching through the glass partition until Mass is over. But I had to learn how to recognise the warning signals that my brain and body gives me when they are about to go into meltdown. It is possible for all autistic people, even non-verbal autistics who have a poor grasp of spoken communication, to learn to pick up on these signals and respond in a more appropriate way. It's not the fault of this boy that he has not yet managed this - he needs help to learn. I have a job as a support worker to profoundly autistic children, and I have seen non-speaking boys and girls whose behaviour was extremely disruptive develop all the skills they need to lead a fulfilling life. It takes time and patience for them to learn, but it can be done. The problem here is that the boy's mother seems to think that because he's disabled, she can just leave him be when he starts pulling parishioners into his lap. Her defence for that was that he has proprioceptive difficulties and needs to feel weight on him. I have the same problem, so I can understand that. But my strategy is to wear thick heavy clothes and sit with a stack of books in my lap. Dr Temple Grandin, an autistic author and agricultural engineer, actually designed a 'squeeze machine' that enables her to regulate the amount of pressure that she feels. There is no good reason for this child to continue doing the things that he does. Better strategies are available for him to use.

At first I was very much opposed to his exclusion from the parish church, but now I see that the priest had little choice. He's already offered solutions to the mother, and she has rejected them.

[Ookami]

[quote name='cappie' post='1588513' date='Jul 1 2008, 07:24 PM']A Minnesota judge has upheld the right of a local priest to exclude an autistic boy from a parish church for his "disruptive conduct."

The Minnesota Star-Tribune reports Todd County District Judge Sally Ireland Robertson, upheld a restraining order, saying the parents of 13 year old Adam Race "have been unable to prevent their adult sized minor child from repeated incidents of unwanted and intrusive conduct" at St Joseph Catholic Church in Bertha.

Adam's mother, Carol Race, of Eagle Bend, said today that she found Robertson's ruling "very shocking."

"What does a judge have to say or not say about what is acceptable in a church service?" she added. "That comes down from the Vatican."

She added that St Joseph's priest, Fr Dan Walz, also has no say in such matters. "The Catholic Church takes a strong stand on including people with disabilities," she said. "This isn't a Father Dan church; this is a Catholic church."

Race said she is exploring whether to continue challenging the restraining order, either through the courts or within the church hierarchy.

Speaking on behalf of the parish this afternoon, Jane Marrin, director of pastoral planning for the St Cloud Diocese, said that St Joseph "is involved in mediation with the family, and it's the parish's hope that we can come to a mutually acceptable solution. That has been the goal all along for the parish, and the judge's ruling doesn't rule out."

Judge Robertson noted in her ruling that Adam, who is 188 cm and 102 kg, has "repeatedly, though unintentionally, disrupted church services and intruded on the solemnity, quietude, and privacy of the Mass in several ways."

These include making nonverbal noises, flailing his arms, urinating on the floor, hitting a smaller child, bumping into elderly parishioners, running into the church parking lot and starting a vehicle, pulling a teenage girl onto his lap and holding her there for 15 minutes and resisting his parents' efforts to restrain him.

[url="http://www.startribune.com/local/22764524.html?location_refer=Most%20Emailed:Homepage:highlightModules:8"]http://www.startribune.com/local/22764524....hlightModules:8[/url][/quote]

This is still discrimination against the disabled. Yes there is an obvious problem that needs a solution but everyone has a right to go to church! A possible solution could be having the family sit in a cry room area. You know how some churches have sound proof rooms in the back for families with babies. if a cry room was added exclusivley for the family they could come to church 10 mins early and leave 10 mins late 2 avoid unwanted run-ins with the elderly. If church is that important to the family they would be willing to make sacrifices. The church could have a fund raiser to raise enough money for the cry room. this whole situation is sad!

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Ookami' post='1588998' date='Jul 2 2008, 03:47 PM']This is still discrimination against the disabled. Yes there is an obvious problem that needs a solution but everyone has a right to go to church! A possible solution could be having the family sit in a cry room area. You know how some churches have sound proof rooms in the back for families with babies. if a cry room was added exclusivley for the family they could come to church 10 mins early and leave 10 mins late 2 avoid unwanted run-ins with the elderly. If church is that important to the family they would be willing to make sacrifices. The church could have a fund raiser to raise enough money for the cry room. this whole situation is sad![/quote]

Nobody has a right go to church.

Through baptism, we are all given the God-given right to be a [i]part[/i] of church, the Christian community, Christ's mystical body. But that does not have to mean attending Mass with the other parishioners if you have a disability that makes it impossible for you to do so. If a home Mass were to be offered at this family's house, they could open their doors to their Catholic neighbours and invite them to attend the Mass too. Their son could still be an active and much-loved participant in the life of both the local church and the entire Church on earth. There is nothing in Catholicism about having to sit in a certain building for Mass in order to be a proper Catholic.

When the boy has greater self-awareness and self-control (because autistic people can and do acquire these things, with patience and practice) it may be possible for him to return to the parish church. The parishioners will also need to be educated about autistic spectrum disorders in order to help them understand this particular child's needs. Until that time, I think that a home Mass would be the best solution.

[StColette]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1588864' date='Jul 2 2008, 12:45 AM']The Mass at home idea was a good one, and I really do not see why the family rejected that option.[/quote]

I agree! I know many families with special needs children who would love to have this option.