foundsheep Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." I know a lot of people focus on everything else when they speak about or against the church. Non Catholics seem to focus on argueing the churches stance on many things. But because we believe The Church to be the one Christ started, this statement blatently states whatever the Leader of The Church decides he will back. No where does this statement or others around it in this the 16th chapter of Matthew say whatever scripture says I will back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 Word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 ya, I peace on that one. I think He's like "Yo homes (pope) whateva you say is ALREADY how it be at up heea" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundsheep Posted March 1, 2004 Author Share Posted March 1, 2004 Bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 (edited) this statement blatently states whatever the Leader of The Church decides he will back. If it did blatantly say that, it doesn't say what happened after the apostles for one thing. But the main thing is I don't think it blatantly says that. I think Jesus was letting them know (and to tell everyone else) that whatever someone holds in their mind and heart.. nothing's going to change cuz it's going to be that way when they die too. "For, behold, the Kingdom of God is within you." Edited March 1, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 except that would be completely against all jewish precedent for the 'keys of the kingdom' and the authority to 'bind and loose' and really just imposing today's english speach and culture upon the sacred words of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 (edited) If I wanted to be difficult, which I probably ultimately will, I'd say that still.. it doesn't say what happened after the apostles. But could you expand some more on that "keys to the kingdom" thing? I remember hearing that when I was a Catholic, but I never considered it when I was a non Catholic so I don't know the best place to start to research on that. Also you could say that he gave those keys to everyone. True, it doesn't parallel with the Jewish thought of the matter, but it's still extending the keys to everyone. Edited March 1, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 (edited) the keys to the kingdom were given to the ministers of the ancient Israeli kingdom. It was also used for the Jewish teaching authority. Isaiah prophesied that these keys of teaching authority would be taken away from Israel and given to a new line when the new Davidic kingdom was fulfilled in the New Covenant. it's like Isaiah 22 or somethin, and it has always been interpretted that way by the Early Church. hmm... Jesus said to His Apostles (which means One who is sent, and that has always been sent by God and sent by the predecessors, the Church) so somehow He was trying to teach us that the Jewish thought on authority was wrong, and that all of His followers would have this authority, while He PICKED ONE PERSON TO GIVE THE KEYS TO and THEN PICKED A GROUP OF ONLY TWELVE PPL (in keeping with the number of authority ever since the days of Israel's 12 sons)... so where did He say this was gonna be different binding and loosing, different keys? On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah; I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open. I will fix him like a peg in a sure spot, to be a place of honor for his family; Isaiah 22:20-23 "And i will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven. Whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loose in heaven."Matthew 16:18-19 just in case you think i'm taking that out of context in Isaiah (which would mean that the Church since the Apostles has taken it out of context) the next lines of course are: On him shall hang all the glory of his family: descendants and offspring, all the little dishes, from bowls to jugs. On that day, says the LORD of hosts, the peg fixed in a sure spot shall give way, break off and fall, and the weight that hung on it shall be done away with; for the LORD has spoken. of course this is to show that God is still over the authority, and the source of it, and that if the authority is to be abused God will strike it down. this is just another case for infallibility, that God will use any means necessary to prevent Apostolic Authority from fallibility. Edited March 1, 2004 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 Arguing how to interpret the bible isn't gonna get us anywhere. The fourth bishop of Rome, Pope Clement I, was called to settle the matter even though St. John the Apostle was still alive and much closer to Corinth than was Rome. But I found this on google. If this is true, then I suppose I can't use the fact that we don't know what happened after the apostles to conclude that the apostles didn't continue their power. I will need to study this more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 :) please do. The authority was never unknown. it may not have been definitively declared on paper for a lil bit, but the Christians all understood it to be so and trusted Cephas (Peter) then trusted Linus after Peter appointed him right before Peter was crucified upsidedown, and the trust has remained all the way up to our trust for John Paul II. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundsheep Posted March 1, 2004 Author Share Posted March 1, 2004 And remember in Acts when they picked the seven i.e. kept the line moving. St Stephen pray for us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundsheep Posted March 1, 2004 Author Share Posted March 1, 2004 If it did blatantly say that, it doesn't say what happened after the apostles for one thing. try picking up the Bible and reading the Book of Acts we know exactly what happens. The Line continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundsheep Posted March 1, 2004 Author Share Posted March 1, 2004 But could you expand some more on that "keys to the kingdom" thing? The keys are there three times(kingdom of David, To Peter, then back to Jesus in Revalations). The hard part is reading the bible and whats there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_rev Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 try picking up the Bible and reading the Book of Acts we know exactly what happens. The Line continues. You said it there FoundSheep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 dairygirl, since you are doing research on the matter, i suggest the following articles to get u started: --Peter's Successors --Power of the Keys --The Keys of the Kingdom --Apostolicity --Apostolic Succession --Apostles Can Become Bishops --How Newman Convinced Me of the Apostolicity of the Catholic Church i hope this helps...........pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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