Full Consent And Drunkenness

[cappie]

Intemperance in drinking which results in partial loss of reason is a venial sin. It may be a mortal sin though because of scandal, injury to health or harm to one's family.

Intoxication that ends in complete loss of reason is a mortal sin, if brought on without sufficient reason.

Complete loss of reason is presumed in one who can no longer distinguish good from bad, or if drunkenness has passed cannot remember what was said or what was done while drunk or if one does a thing that would never been done when sober.

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1587538' date='Jul 1 2008, 05:23 AM']Hmmm...I would say that we have committed a grave sin by getting drunk in the first place. We have full consent to start drinking. If we are prone to overdrinking then the Lord would call us to avoid that near occasion of sin. Once truly 'drunk' it seems our will is impaired...we have to have the freedom of will and choose evil for our sin to be mortal. So I would say the drunken killing of people would not necessarily be a mortal sin since in a drunken state our rational and willful faculties are so completely impaired.

In a sense I think it is superfluous to worry too much about that. IF it IS a mortal sin to over-imbibe, then whatever sins we commit after that don't really matter to much when we die because that first grave act of over-imbibing has separated us from the sanctifying grace of Christ.[/quote]

It might be superfluous to [i]worry[/i] about that, but not to [i]ask the question[/i]:
people often wonder about these things because they want to know whether they can have holy communion or not...

[Fr. Bruno]

Let's first look at the Catechism :

CCC 1857 : [i] For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."[/i]

According to paragraph 1858, [i]grave matter [/i]is defined by the 10 commandements.
Getting severly drunk is a [u]grave matter[/u] because it's an offense against the 5th comandement (for more explanation, see the section on the 5th commandement).
Concerning [u]full knowledge[/u] : many people don't even know that getting drunk is a sin ; but most of us here do.
Full knowledge does not mean that you know it is a grave matter, but just that you know it's bad.
[u]Deliberate consent[/u] means that you freely chose not only the act of drinking, but also that you want to become drunk, or at least that you consent to it. If this is not the case, getting seriously drunk, although it is a grave matter, is not a grave sin.
I'm not sure whether this is clear enough. I don't want to mislead anybody, so if you don't feel comfortable with that answer, please let me know.
Thanks and God bless !

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Fr. Bruno' post='1587970' date='Jul 1 2008, 02:56 AM']It might be superfluous to [i]worry[/i] about that, but not to [i]ask the question[/i]:
people often wonder about these things because they want to know whether they can have holy communion or not...[/quote]

I don't think I worded that well...what I mean was...if over-imbibing itself is a mortal sin, then a sin committed without the the consent of your will is not necessarily a mortal sin...but whether what follows (the sin committed while intoxicated) is a mortal sin or not DOES NOT MATTER in the sense of whether one can receive communion because my initial presupposition was that intoxication itself was a mortal sin. If you have committed a mortal sin, you don't got to communion...it would be superfluous to struggle over whether what happened afterward may or may not keep you from Communion if you already shouldn't go because of the initial act of over-drinking. The initial act requires confession and we are called to confess any venial sins too (so anything that happened after we were over-intoxicated should be confessed EITHER WAY...since we are already in the confession for over imbibing).

I hope that sorta makes more sense...I'm really tired right now...

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Fr. Bruno' post='1587993' date='Jul 1 2008, 03:24 AM'][u]Deliberate consent[/u] means that you freely chose not only the act of drinking, but also that you want to become drunk, or at least that you consent to it. If this is not the case, getting seriously drunk, although it is a grave matter, is not a grave sin.
I'm not sure whether this is clear enough. I don't want to mislead anybody, so if you don't feel comfortable with that answer, please let me know.
Thanks and God bless ![/quote]

For me personally, I have a hard time accepting that on some level I am not 'deliberately consenting' if I keep lifting the drink to my mouth. Its not like its in the air and I am not leaving the room...I am taking a positive action to keep putting alcohol in my body...that just seems that it implies deliberation...maybe I'm making it too hard on myself...

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1588008' date='Jul 1 2008, 11:36 AM']For me personally, I have a hard time accepting that on some level I am not 'deliberately consenting' if I keep lifting the drink to my mouth. Its not like its in the air and I am not leaving the room...I am taking a positive action to keep putting alcohol in my body...that just seems that it implies deliberation...maybe I'm making it too hard on myself...[/quote]

The point I was trying to make is this :
- you are consenting to drinking, which is not bad in itself;
- but in order for sin to be [b]mortal[/b], you have to choose or to consent to that which in itself is sinful, in this case : getting drunk.

Does this clarify the issue ?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Fr. Bruno' post='1588036' date='Jul 1 2008, 04:04 AM']The point I was trying to make is this :
- you are consenting to drinking, which is not bad in itself;
- but in order for sin to be [b]mortal[/b], you have to choose or to consent to that which in itself is sinful, in this case : getting drunk.

Does this clarify the issue ?[/quote]

I do not think that drinking in and of itself is inherently bad. But...How does one keep lifting the glass to their mouth and not 'choose' to get drunk if getting drunk is the result of continuing to lift that cup; they are taking a positive action toward a grave sin(lifting the cup...they aren't allowing a negative thing to happen, they are positively acting toward that end themselves)...how is that not deliberation if the result of their positive action is drunkeness...?

Edited July 1, 2008 by Veridicus

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1588039' date='Jul 1 2008, 12:07 PM']I do not think that drinking in and of itself is inherently bad. But...How does one keep lifting the glass to their mouth and not 'choose' to get drunk if getting drunk is the result of continuing to lift that cup; they are taking a positive action toward a grave sin(lifting the cup...they aren't allowing a negative thing to happen, they are positively acting toward that end themselves)...how is that not deliberation if the result of their positive action is drunkeness...?[/quote]

First of all, many of our actions have results which we do neither want nor choose.
I know that when driving my car, I pollute the atmosphere which, on a worldwide level, contributes to deteriorating other people's health... I choose to drive, but not to deteriorate people's health. I admit, this is not a good comparison, but just an example to show that we must make the necessary distinctions when judging moral acts.
In the case of drinking, you have to distinguish between the act of drinking and the result of becoming drunk. The fact is that many people get drunk without realizing it while they are drinking. The case that CatherineM described might be a good example. When it's hot, when people are thirsty, on parties or dinners, people often drink without realizing that they should have stopped a while ago; often times, they realize it only when it's to late. This does not mean that they wanted to become drunk.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Fr. Bruno' post='1588066' date='Jul 1 2008, 04:30 AM']First of all, many of our actions have results which we do neither want nor choose.
I know that when driving my car, I pollute the atmosphere which, on a worldwide level, contributes to deteriorating other people's health... I choose to drive, but not to deteriorate people's health. I admit, this is not a good comparison, but just an example to show that we must make the necessary distinctions when judging moral acts.
In the case of drinking, you have to distinguish between the act of drinking and the result of becoming drunk. The fact is that many people get drunk without realizing it while they are drinking. The case that CatherineM described might be a good example. When it's hot, when people are thirsty, on parties or dinners, people often drink without realizing that they should have stopped a while ago; often times, they realize it only when it's to late. This does not mean that they wanted to become drunk.[/quote]

Maybe I'm just being scrupulous then...I've never felt like it wasn't a mortal sin when those kind of things have happened to me...I mean I NEVER want to get drunk in the sense that I can't drive or I dont' know what's going on...but every time it has happened I've felt aweful like I should have known better. But then again I rarely really WANT to sin period...a lot of my sins are force of habit sins anyway. I mean there are times when I lie or whatever and I know I'm doing it, but with big stuff, do we really every truly want to knowingly commit a mortal sin? It just seems like obfuscating the deliberation clause to much could undermine the severity of my actions...I dunno. I should probably talk to Pontifex about this in person.

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1588078' date='Jul 1 2008, 12:45 PM']Maybe I'm just being scrupulous then...I've never felt like it wasn't a mortal sin when those kind of things have happened to me...I mean I NEVER want to get drunk in the sense that I can't drive or I dont' know what's going on...but every time it has happened I've felt aweful like I should have known better. But then again I rarely really WANT to sin period...a lot of my sins are force of habit sins anyway. I mean there are times when I lie or whatever and I know I'm doing it, but with big stuff, do we really every truly want to knowingly commit a mortal sin? It just seems like obfuscating the deliberation clause to much could undermine the severity of my actions...I dunno. I should probably talk to Pontifex about this in person.[/quote]

[i]But then again I rarely really WANT to sin period...a lot of my sins are force of habit sins anyway[/i] :
Another distinction is important here : you don't want to sin as such, but you may want to do the act that is sinful. If that's the case, then you sin.
[i]do we really every truly want to knowingly commit a mortal sin[/i]
I think that for Christians who take their relationship with God seriously, it's quite difficult to say : " Now, I want to commit a mortal sin." However, they might happen to say : " I know this act is bad, but for some reason, I'll do it anyway."... and then find out later that they deliberately did something seriuosly evil. In that case, it's seriuos sin, even though they might not have thought about the fact that it was serious sin at the moment of doing it, just admitting that it was evil. In other words : the expression " full knowledge " refers to the fact that you know it's a sin, but does not mean that you know it's a grave sin. Does that sound like clear ?

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1588078' date='Jul 1 2008, 12:45 PM']Maybe I'm just being scrupulous then...I've never felt like it wasn't a mortal sin when those kind of things have happened to me...I mean I NEVER want to get drunk in the sense that I can't drive or I dont' know what's going on...but every time it has happened I've felt aweful like I should have known better. But then again I rarely really WANT to sin period...a lot of my sins are force of habit sins anyway. I mean there are times when I lie or whatever and I know I'm doing it, but with big stuff, do we really every truly want to knowingly commit a mortal sin? It just seems like obfuscating the deliberation clause to much could undermine the severity of my actions...I dunno. I should probably talk to Pontifex about this in person.[/quote]

[i]"But then again I rarely really WANT to sin period...a lot of my sins are force of habit sins anyway"[/i] :
Another distinction is important here : you don't want to sin as such, but you may want to do the act that is sinful. If that's the case, then you sin.
[i]"do we really every truly want to knowingly commit a mortal sin"[/i]
I think that for Christians who take their relationship with God seriously, it's quite difficult to say : " Now, I want to commit a mortal sin." However, they might happen to say : " I know this act is bad, but for some reason, I'll do it anyway."... and then find out later that they deliberately did something seriuosly evil. In that case, if they acted freely, it's seriuos sin, even though they might not have thought about the fact that it was serious sin at the moment of doing it, just admitting that it was evil. In other words : the expression " full knowledge " refers to the fact that you know it's a sin, but does not mean that you know it's a grave sin. Does that sound like clear ?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Fr. Bruno' post='1588093' date='Jul 1 2008, 05:16 AM'][i]"But then again I rarely really WANT to sin period...a lot of my sins are force of habit sins anyway"[/i] :
Another distinction is important here : you don't want to sin as such, but you may want to do the act that is sinful. If that's the case, then you sin.[/quote]

I think that might have cemented it. The positive action of drinking in itself isnt't sin, but desiring to be drunk and then gratifying that is grave sin.

I guess really what I'm struggling with is at what point does failing to avoid the occasion of getting drunk become grave? You are saying it is only grave if the individual knowingly and with free will has a prior compulsion to get drunk and so drinks in order to gratify that compulsion. If a person has a prior compulsion to get drunk and begins drinking thinking that they can handle it, but then they proceed to get drunk anyway as they lose their will and continue consuming...it's not grave because their initial intention when they had full capacity of will was NOT to get drunk (even though inside they had the desire)?

[Veridicus]

I'm sorry that I keep dragging this on, but I'm trying to really wrap my head around this.

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1588098' date='Jul 1 2008, 01:37 PM']I think that might have cemented it. The positive action of drinking in itself isnt't sin, but desiring to be drunk and then gratifying that is grave sin.

I guess really what I'm struggling with is at what point does failing to avoid the occasion of getting drunk become grave? You are saying it is only grave if the individual knowingly and with free will has a prior compulsion to get drunk and so drinks in order to gratify that compulsion. If a person has a prior compulsion to get drunk and begins drinking thinking that they can handle it, but then they proceed to get drunk anyway as they lose their will and continue consuming...it's not grave because their initial intention when they had full capacity of will was NOT to get drunk (even though inside they had the desire)?[/quote]

First, if I understand the word "compulsion" correctly (English is not my language...), it reduces your capacity to decide freely. Grave sin, however is only possible if the person can decide freely (full consent).
Second, you mention the desire. Do you mean the desire to drink, or the desire to get drunk ? Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "inside he had the desire". Desires are always inside. It makes more sense, I believe, to talk about conscious or unconscious desire. However, there might be more appropriate English expressions to clarify this...
If one has a conscious desire to get drunk and freely chooses to take action [b]in order [/b]to become drunk, then I conclude that this is his intention. I highlight [b]in order [/b]because it's different from the case where drunkenness is an unwanted result.
Does this answer your question ?

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='Fr. Bruno' post='1588093' date='Jul 1 2008, 05:16 AM']In other words : the expression " full knowledge " refers to the fact that you know it's a sin, but does not mean that you know it's a grave sin. Does that sound like clear ?[/quote]

Really? I didn't know that... interesting...

[quote]Haha...I too have been asking myself for the last 2 hours "Why are you still awake? Go to Bed?" and then I keep typing and clicking the silly mouse...[/quote]

Well, you were up waaay later than me, unless you presently live in Turkey, or something. But yeah, my Circadian rhythms could use some discipline. Night owliness is too ingrained of a habit in me.

Edited July 1, 2008 by lilac_angel