Full Consent And Drunkenness

[TeresaBenedicta]

So, I have a question...

Is drunkness always a mortal sin?

I guess what I'm wondering about is the "full consent" condition. If you drink, don't have the intention of getting drunk, but end up drunk... did you give full consent? Or, is simply being in the situation in the first place enough to be full consent, knowing that there's the possibility of getting drunk?

[CatherineM]

We hold drunk drivers criminally libel even if they were too drunk at the time they got behind the wheel to realize that they shouldn't be driving. It's not the 10th drink, it's the first one that you have to think about before imbibing. You are expected to think about how you are going to get home without driving before taking the first drink while you are still sober. If you don't, and drink and drive, you're not allowed to claim you didn't know what you were doing. Very few people get a pass on murders or assaults committed while intoxicated on alcohol or drugs.

I can't say whether the Lord will give us a pass either, and would never presume to understand how he's going to judge anyone. I guess it depends on whether Jesus sees an illness involved in the alcohol consumption.

[Veridicus]

Hmmm...I would say that we have committed a grave sin by getting drunk in the first place. We have full consent to start drinking. If we are prone to overdrinking then the Lord would call us to avoid that near occasion of sin. Once truly 'drunk' it seems our will is impaired...we have to have the freedom of will and choose evil for our sin to be mortal. So I would say the drunken killing of people would not necessarily be a mortal sin since in a drunken state our rational and willful faculties are so completely impaired.

In a sense I think it is superfluous to worry too much about that. IF it IS a mortal sin to over-imbibe, then whatever sins we commit after that don't really matter to much when we die because that first grave act of over-imbibing has separated us from the sanctifying grace of Christ.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Veridicus

[CatherineM]

There's a lot of people sitting in jail or on death row, who committed their crime while intoxicated or high. God may not hold our un-sober actions against us, but the US Justice system does.

[TeresaBenedicta]

I guess I wasn't exactly talking about sins committed after being drunk, but more about the issue of full consent in the drunkenness itself.

I've heard a few different things about this... some say that it's a mortal sin to get drunk period. Some say that it's a mortal sin to drink with the intention to get drunk. But say that you start drinking, without the intention of getting drunk, and end up being drunk. Would that be a mortal sin? Or, I guess, does that fulfill full consent?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1587597' date='Jun 30 2008, 09:51 PM']There's a lot of people sitting in jail or on death row, who committed their crime while intoxicated or high. God may not hold our un-sober actions against us, but the US Justice system does.[/quote]

It definitely does...and maybe it should...

[Veridicus]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1587777' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:12 PM']I guess I wasn't exactly talking about sins committed after being drunk, but more about the issue of full consent in the drunkenness itself.

I've heard a few different things about this... some say that it's a mortal sin to get drunk period. Some say that it's a mortal sin to drink with the intention to get drunk. But say that you start drinking, without the intention of getting drunk, and end up being drunk. Would that be a mortal sin? Or, I guess, does that fulfill full consent?[/quote]

I am no official of Canon Law...but I would say it is still a mortal sin whether you 'chose to get drunk' because you kept raising that glass to your lips and swallowing. You had will to keep drinking...at some point you chose to drink that drink that put you over the edge whether you really 'meant' to or not. You were sober and then you weren't and it was a conscious decision to drink the drinks in between. If I drink to much I basically have mental black outs and don't remember anything even though I'm still walking and talking and I don't get physically sick or anything...I have been very fortunate that the few times this has happened I have had loving friends who kept track of me. The point is, I KNOW this can happen to me so I have a moral obligation to not drink immoderately...this means I should never even approach near drunk ever...I KNOW what will happen if I drink too much therefore I feel personally for myself ANY slip ups in this area is a grave sin.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Veridicus

[CatherineM]

Your honest intention always matters to God. My husband and I were at a formal dinner at Rideau Hall, and it was one of those with a different wine with each course, and the courses themselves were the size of quarters, so I got very drunk before I realized it. I wasn't driving that night, so I can't say if the same thing would have happened if I knew I was driving. The ice wine was awful good.

I had a priest tell me once that sin was basically anything that comes in between you and your relationship with God. If you don't have a problem with alcohol, then drinking shouldn't be a sin. Same for gambling. My idea of a big day at the race track is to only go with $20, and try to leave with the same amount at the end of the day. Now if I was gambling with the mortgage money, or hocking my wedding ring, totally different. If someone is drinking to get drunk, maybe there is a problem that they aren't willing to look at.

[Veridicus]

To an extent I think this issue must be looked at an individual level rather than trying to come up with a blanket solution...I have previously posted my personal decision.

[lilac_angel]

Those who have less experience with alcohol and its effects would probably be considered less morally culpable if they end up drunk than those who are experienced and are more aware of when they're starting to reach The Point of No Return. The more experience one might rack up with alcohol gives a person more knowledge and familiarity with it and thus more moral responsibility. It is important to remember that alcohol can "relax" the will little by little, and that can make it hard to determine, possibly, when one reaches that point where "full consent of the will" is no longer there. I tend to agree that it is probably looked at on a more individual level by God rather than just a one-size-fits-all approach.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1587903' date='Jul 1 2008, 01:25 AM']...It is important to remember that alcohol can "relax" the will little by little, and that can make it hard to determine, possibly, when one reaches that point where "full consent of the will" is no longer there...[/quote]

It is for this very reason I personally try to set the bar on the side of caution and moderation over 'tempting the whims' of whether I've eaten enough or if my Alcohol Dehydrogenase enzyme activity is decreased for some reason. Each time you drink is a little different because your body chemistry is a little different so caution and a steadfast moderation should always be considered.

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1587911' date='Jul 1 2008, 01:36 AM']It is for this very reason I personally try to set the bar on the side of caution and moderation over 'tempting the whims' of whether I've eaten enough or if my Alcohol Dehydrogenase enzyme activity is decreased for some reason. Each time you drink is a little different because your body chemistry is a little different so caution and a steadfast moderation should always be considered.[/quote]

Definitely. Moderation beats enslavation and leads to sal-vation. I know that enslavation is not a word but I'm up too late and I wanted to rhyme. Alcohol Dehydrogenase enzyme activity... I never did consider that before. I'd probably have to look it up and then consider it.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1587917' date='Jul 1 2008, 01:41 AM']Moderation beats enslavation and leads to sal-vation.[/quote]

I really, really like that statement. That is a potent quotable in my books.

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1587917' date='Jul 1 2008, 01:41 AM']Alcohol Dehydrogenase enzyme activity... I never did consider that before. I'd probably have to look it up and then consider it.[/quote]

ADH is the enzyme that allows the human body to metabolize alcohols to prevent alochol's toxicity from damaging sensitive cells too much. Learns something new everyday here on phatmass huh?

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1587930' date='Jul 1 2008, 01:57 AM']I really, really like that statement. That is a potent quotable in my books.
ADH is the enzyme that allows the human body to metabolize alcohols to prevent alochol's toxicity from damaging sensitive cells too much. Learns something new everyday here on phatmass huh?[/quote]

Thanks, it was said with a lot of chipper fervor, as you may have noted from my placing of the hyphen in sal-vation. Maybe sleep deprivation is the way to go for me! A potent quotable!!! (though I do feel that I'm going downhill now, so I guess I reached my limit with that one today. Time to respond to my body's urgent signals that I am indeed finally producing ample amounts of melatonin. SEE! I knows some bio.).

[Veridicus]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1587937' date='Jul 1 2008, 02:05 AM']Thanks, it was said with a lot of chipper fervor, as you may have noted from my placing of the hyphen in sal-vation. Maybe sleep deprivation is the way to go for me! A potent quotable!!! (though I do feel that I'm going downhill now, so I guess I reached my limit with that one today. Time to respond to my body's urgent signals that I am indeed finally producing ample amounts of melatonin. SEE! I knows some bio.).[/quote]


Haha...I too have been asking myself for the last 2 hours "Why are you still awake? Go to Bed?" and then I keep typing and clicking the silly mouse...