National H I V Testing Day

[havok579257]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1587862' date='Jul 1 2008, 01:07 AM']You will never be good at debates if you put words in people's mouths... [/quote]


It would also be good to take your own advice in this matter as it seems you have done this before with my posts.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1587864' date='Jul 1 2008, 01:11 AM']that's called a straw man logical fallacy!!![/quote]


No idea what post you are talking about since you didn't quote anything.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1587867' date='Jul 1 2008, 12:14 AM']No idea what post you are talking about since you didn't quote anything.[/quote]

Sorry...Alycin said you put words into someone's mouth and then arguing about it. That is setting up a straw man argument...its a logical fallacy. It means you take something that someone DIDN'T say and try to defeat the 'straw man' position you have fashioned FOR THEM. Meanwhile, you haven't actually addressed their real position, but it may appear you have somehow defeated something.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1587869' date='Jul 1 2008, 01:21 AM']Sorry...Alycin said you put words into someone's mouth and then arguing about it. That is setting up a straw man argument...its a logical fallacy. It means you take something that someone DIDN'T say and try to defeat the 'straw man' position you have fashioned FOR THEM. Meanwhile, you haven't actually addressed their real position, but it may appear you have somehow defeated something.[/quote]


I never put anything into her mouth, hence the question marks. Me asking if those were her thoughts because she seemed to imply that before she thought there were problem with the pro-life movement but now finds out she was wrong.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1587857' date='Jul 1 2008, 12:03 AM'][b]So you would say the pro-life movement is about as perfect as it can be? That there are no improvements that can be made?[/b] [u]Good you think that way[/u], but [b][u]not everyone agree's with that notion[/u][/b].[/quote]

In this instance, I would say your straw man fallacy occurred when you asked her questions (bolded above), but then responded affirmitively FOR her (underlined above) and then dismissed the stance you decided for her (bolded and underlined simultaneously above). You set up a straw man argument and then argued against it in this post.

If you would have actually waited for her response...and THEN proceded to argue against her actual response, it wouldn't have been a straw man in this scenario.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Veridicus

[Alycin]

Haha.

Verd, you are cool.

[Alycin]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1587866' date='Jul 1 2008, 01:13 AM']It would also be good to take your own advice in this matter as it seems you have done this before with my posts.[/quote]


If you're going to make accusations, at least post proof.

Oh wait, you can't!

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1587891' date='Jul 1 2008, 01:14 AM']Haha.

Verd, you are cool.[/quote]

Cool is okay...what I've really been trying to work on is being charitable and avoiding my intrinsic antagonisms. Seriously, you called me out once for my sarcasm and it kind hit me in the forehead. It's so easy to be sarcastic and cutting on these posts because you don't have to actually look the person in the eye. Thanks for that btw.

[Alycin]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1587901' date='Jul 1 2008, 02:24 AM'] Cool is okay...what I've really been trying to work on is being charitable and avoiding my intrinsic antagonisms. Seriously, you called me out once for my sarcasm and it kind hit me in the forehead. It's so easy to be sarcastic and cutting on these posts because you don't have to actually look the person in the eye. Thanks for that btw.[/quote]


Awww I don't even remember that... but you're welcome.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1587934' date='Jul 1 2008, 02:02 AM']Awww I don't even remember that... but you're welcome. [/quote]


I was trying to find a link to it...but I'm not really sure how to at this point cuz it was a while back. Basically, I responded to a post of a third party by starting out claiming that I was being objective...but then I proceded to lambast them with righteous antagonism and I finished it off with a really snarky remark...and you were like "I like how you said you were going to be charitable, but then you had to throw in that sarcasm there at the end" And it hit me that I was being a douche...since then I've been more conscious of my self-righteousness...the Litany of Humility by Merry Cardinal del Val sure helps...I pray it a lot after communion and at other times when I feel particularly snarky:

O Jesus, meek and humble of heart,
Hear me.

From the desire of being esteemed,
Deliver me, O Jesus.
From the desire of being loved,
Deliver me, O Jesus.
From the desire of being extolled,
Deliver me, O Jesus.
From the desire of being honored,
Deliver me, O Jesus.
From the desire of being praised,
Deliver me, O Jesus.
From the desire of being preferred to others,
Deliver me, O Jesus.
From the desire of being consulted,
Deliver me, O Jesus.
From the desire of being approved,
Deliver me, O Jesus.

From the fear of being humiliated,
Deliver me, O Jesus.
From the fear of being despised,
Deliver me, O Jesus.
From the fear of suffering rebukes,
Deliver me, O Jesus.
From the fear of being calumniated,
Deliver me, O Jesus.
From the fear of being forgotten,
Deliver me, O Jesus.
From the fear of being ridiculed,
Deliver me, O Jesus.
From the fear of being wronged,
Deliver me, O Jesus.
From the fear of being suspected,
Deliver me, O Jesus.

That others may be loved more than I,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may be esteemed more than I,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That, in the opinion of the world,
others may increase and I may decrease,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may be chosen and I set aside,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may be praised and I go unnoticed,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may be preferred to me in everything,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may become holier than I,
provided that I may become as holy as I should,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

[kujo]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1587857' date='Jul 1 2008, 02:03 AM']There is never only one valiad argument to an argument of opinons. That's just being closed minded.
So you would say the pro-life movement is about as perfect as it can be? That there are no improvements that can be made? Good you think that way, but not everyone agree's with that notion.[/quote]

I would say that the pro-life movement should focus more on the issue of federalism which has been trumped by all pro-abortion legislation and court decisions. It removes the right of the state to regulate this practice. If I were to come up with a plan, I would try to get Roe v. Wade overturned based on states' rights. From there, I'd employ a state-by-state plan of lobbying and voter education to have laws passed to outlaw this practice. It will be easier to get things done at the state level than at the federal level, IMHO.

And there is ALWAYS only one argument when the Church issues an opinion on abortion.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='kujo' post='1587941' date='Jul 1 2008, 02:12 AM']I would say that the pro-life movement should focus more on the issue of federalism which has been trumped by all pro-abortion legislation and court decisions. It removes the right of the state to regulate this practice. If I were to come up with a plan, I would try to get Roe v. Wade overturned based on states' rights. From there, I'd employ a state-by-state plan of lobbying and voter education to have laws passed to outlaw this practice. It will be easier to get things done at the state level than at the federal level, IMHO.

And there is ALWAYS only one argument when the Church issues an opinion on abortion.[/quote]

That's the best idea I've read in this whole thread. Like many other issues, this IS one that should be decided at the state level.

[kujo]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1587955' date='Jul 1 2008, 04:32 AM']That's the best idea I've read in this whole thread. Like many other issues, this IS one that should be decided at the state level.[/quote]

I'm a little exhausted so I can't articulate this view as well as I usually am, but I feel that the pro-life movement would be able to achieve victories easier on the state level if for no other reason that the complacency and indifference to state politics that infects our political system.

And, for those who would perhaps think otherwise, [b]I THINK THAT ABORTION IS DEPLORABLE AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL IN THIS COUNTRY!!!![/b] Just because I'm advocating this approach in NO WAY means that I think abortion should be legal, just dealt with differently.

[Veridicus]

Silly Supreme Court having the juridcal power to stomp on state's rights...argh...Can't live with them, Can't live without them...

[kujo]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1588020' date='Jul 1 2008, 05:48 AM']Silly Supreme Court having the juridcal power to stomp on state's rights...argh...Can't live with them, Can't live without them...[/quote]

It's a tough thing. Even our current relatively-conservative court will have a hard time overturning Roe v. Wade because they are all avowed followers of [i]stare decisis.[/i]