Veridicus Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1587781' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:15 PM']Except for it to be false would mean that before Roe v Wade, there was never a single abortion performed in the USA.[/quote] You aren't understanding my reference. False dichotomy as in you are artificially making a separation between education and legislation as if they both can work synergistically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1587778' date='Jul 1 2008, 12:13 AM']I wasn't necessarily addressing you with my earlier statment. You are still setting up false dichotomies by the way. The reality is that deterents [i]can [/i]be educational. A legislative deterent is more likely to put an individual in a position where they are more open to the ideology behind the law. I think in my own personal experience, the way I have come around on the birth control issue compared to what I believe in high school was because of Church, clergy, and gf deterents. Sure, I could have gone on believing what I did...but because of the Church laws on the issue I was open to the education which in turn reformed my conscience on contraception.[/quote] Church law and man made laws are different. If I am getting what your saying, your idea on why bc is wrong is based off of clergy and church teaching. Which is what I am saying. You figured it was wrong because of God's teaching, not due to some law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 (edited) [quote name='havok579257' post='1587779' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:14 PM']I see what your saying but this to me is different than abstinance. Having pre marital sex in and of itself will more than likely not kill someone. Having premarital sex with someone who has AIDS could very will kill you. I think we should teach God's law about abstiance but like I said not everyone will conform to our ideas and even if they all did, it would not happen over night. In the mean time so many people world wide are infected by this horrible disease because they don't know they have it. This is a different matter in itself because this is like a plague that is growing and growing and growing. Let's just jump off the sex thing. Fact is AIDS can be spread more than just sex, yes sex is the biggest way its spread, but its not the only. People need to know if they are infected. If this was only a STD then I might think different, but this disease can be spread byn other means.[/quote] Wait... so we should teach God's law, but since it won't change people overnight we should legislate the change. BUT... we shouldn't focus on making abortion illegal but instead work only on peoples minds. Edited July 1, 2008 by rkwright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='rkwright' post='1587792' date='Jul 1 2008, 12:23 AM']Wait... so we should teach God's law, but since it won't change people overnight we should legislate the change. BUT... we shouldn't focus on making abortion legal but instead work only on peoples minds.[/quote] I never said anything about making testing maditory if thats what your referring to. It should be free and avaliable to everyone. We should be teaching God's law to people. Correct for point 2. If we spend all our time and effor trying to illegalize abortion, what will it really accomplish? Can the law be changed later on down the road? Will people still perform abortions? Will making it illegal end abortions all together? Although change someone's mind and will it matter if abortion is legal? Who cares if its legal if every person understands its wrong and refuses to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1587804' date='Jul 1 2008, 12:29 AM']If we spend all our time and effor trying to illegalize abortion, what will it really accomplish?[/quote] Therein lies the fallacy of your argument. We don't spend "all our time and effort" trying to change legislation. A huge part of the pro-life movement focuses on education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1587804' date='Jul 1 2008, 12:29 AM']Who cares if its legal if every person understands its wrong and refuses to do it.[/quote] [quote name='Veridicus' post='1587780' date='Jul 1 2008, 12:14 AM']You are dawdling into meaningless abstraction with questions like that.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 Are we all not dwadling in abstract thoughts with most of the posts in these forums? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1587816' date='Jul 1 2008, 12:40 AM']Therein lies the fallacy of your argument. We don't spend "all our time and effort" trying to change legislation. A huge part of the pro-life movement focuses on education.[/quote] Except to me it seems we spend way more time trying to change laws than teaching. We need to focus on teahcing God's law. I have seen tons of stuff on news channels about people trying to change abortion laws but I have seen next to nothing on trying to convince people abortion is wrong. I have seen news articles with people outside abortion clinics attacking people going into it, but rarley seen about people teaching. Yes I know you don't see everything that happens in the world on the news, just making an observation. I think it would be more effective if we put ALL of our efforts into changing minds and teaching instead of wasting time trying to change laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1587833' date='Jul 1 2008, 12:47 AM']Except to me it seems we spend way more time trying to change laws than teaching. We need to focus on teahcing God's law. I have seen tons of stuff on news channels about people trying to change abortion laws but I have seen next to nothing on trying to convince people abortion is wrong. I have seen news articles with people outside abortion clinics attacking people going into it, but rarley seen about people teaching. Yes I know you don't see everything that happens in the world on the news, just making an observation. I think it would be more effective if we put ALL of our efforts into changing minds and teaching instead of wasting time trying to change laws.[/quote] you have seen people ATTACKING people going into clinics? wow. yeah, i would guess that would make news, but it is certainly not the norm. If you are only seeing the things you describe it is because your eyes are half closed. As for the second part of your statement, I disagree, as does the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1587840' date='Jul 1 2008, 12:51 AM']you have seen people ATTACKING people going into clinics? wow. yeah, i would guess that would make news, but it is certainly not the norm. If you are only seeing the things you describe it is because your eyes are half closed. As for the second part of your statement, I disagree, as does the Church.[/quote] My eyes are half closed? I guess yours are wide open? You disagre and where in lies the problem. Is this not the debate table? Is it not for debating with people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 (edited) Yeah but it's not much of a debate when there is only one valid argument. (I disagree and so does[u][b] the Church.[/b][/u] THERE is the problem.) And yes my eyes are open. They haven't always been. I used to think that the pro-life movement was lacking in a lot of ways. It wasn't until I actually researched it and got involved that I learned that I was wrong. Good night. Edited July 1, 2008 by Alycin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1587855' date='Jul 1 2008, 01:00 AM']Yeah but it's not much of a debate when there is only one valid argument. And yes my eyes are open. They haven't always been. I used to think that the pro-life movement was lacking in a lot of ways. It wasn't until I actually researched it and got involved that I learned that I was wrong. Good night.[/quote] There is never only one valiad argument to an argument of opinons. That's just being closed minded. So you would say the pro-life movement is about as perfect as it can be? That there are no improvements that can be made? Good you think that way, but not everyone agree's with that notion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1587855' date='Jul 1 2008, 01:00 AM']Yeah but it's not much of a debate when there is only one valid argument. (I disagree and so does[u][b] the Church.[/b][/u] THERE is the problem.) And yes my eyes are open. They haven't always been. I used to think that the pro-life movement was lacking in a lot of ways. It wasn't until I actually researched it and got involved that I learned that I was wrong. Good night.[/quote] Yeah but the church also says that the death penalty is valiad in rare cases yet many people disagree with it in all its forms. One can have a different opinion than the church on something if it does not go against God's will and is not iffalablly(sp?) declared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1587857' date='Jul 1 2008, 01:03 AM']So you would say the pro-life movement is about as perfect as it can be? That there are no improvements that can be made? Good you think that way, but not everyone agree's with that notion.[/quote] You will never be good at debates if you put words in people's mouths... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 that's called a straw man logical fallacy!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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