havok579257 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1587742' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:56 PM']"I can't promise to leave when you keep posting things that are false."[/quote] opions are not false. they are just one's opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1587729' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:51 PM']If we just change the law, then people will still think abortion is a valiad and ok option and will seek it by illegal means.[/quote] This is an absurd statement. Absolutely absurd. And I will repeat: It does not have to be ONE or the other. We can (and do!) teach that abortion is wrong and we (as Catholics) also fight for abortion to be illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1587739' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:54 PM']I really don't think free HIV tests promotes free sex with all. It promotes saftey for everyone. I don't see how free HIV tests encourges anything.[/quote] I think this sounds similar to the sex ed class debate. Do we teach safe sex or abstinence? Getting people tested, IMHO, encourages the activity. It the same thing as saying "Well if you're going to do it, then get tested." Instead we should be, like you said, changing peoples minds, by saying "Don't do it, its wrong." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1587746' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:57 PM']....We will never end abortion by [b]just [/b][u][/u]changing the laws...[/quote] Why do you keep trying to establish a false dichotomy. Your have to get past this logical fallacy my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1587747' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:58 PM']opions are not false. they are just one's opinions.[/quote] False things you have posted in this thread: * Illegalizing abortion "doesn't matter." * All sins are the same in God's eyes. * Making abortion illegal won't change anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 (edited) [quote name='havok579257' post='1587739' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:54 PM']I really don't think free HIV tests promotes free sex with all. It promotes saftey for everyone. I don't see how free HIV tests encourges anything.[/quote] Did someone say these mandatory HIV-tests would encourage promiscuity? Regardless, to an extent I agree with you that the offering the mere knowledge that one is or is not HIV positive is not intrinsically scandalizing them into having sex. This information IS different than teaching someone how to use a condom. Individuals have a right to know if they are HIV-+ or not; they can go to an ER and demand to have a HIV serum test performed so they know. Hospitals aren't 'scandalizing' the patient into thinking they can leave and sleep around, the hospital has an obligation to give patients health information. Edited July 1, 2008 by Veridicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1587744' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:57 PM']You are attempting to set up false dichotomies that no one here but yourself is positing. We are for education [i]and [/i]legislation. One without the other is futile as I think you are trying to say. The reality is that legislating against abortion is a major step in educating people and affecting their decisions. I do not smoke weed because it is illegal and I know if I get caught with weed I will never be able to practice medicine. I myself do not necessarily think that weed is much worse than alcohol (which is legal for me as a 22 year old)...but the legislative deterrent and its subsequent consequences are enough to keep me from EVER smoking weed. Legislation works because it IS a deterent. I don't smoke pot because it is illegal...not necessarily because I have been convinced in and of itself that it is more or less moral than alcohol. Please do not turn this post into an oppotunity to begin arguing the morality of pot/alcohol. I merely used this as a personal example and analogy to demonstrate my point.[/quote] Making something illegal is not a step toward educating people as Acylin said earlier, she knows tons of people who don't do drugs just because they are illegal. How does that solve the problem. I never said making something illegal wasn't a form of a deterrent. I said that it will never solve the problem. Right now no matter what we do with our drug laws, people still do it. Why? Cause they want to and see nothing wrong with it. This is exactly my point. If you make something illegal some people might stop doing said activity. Although as a whole, it won't solve the problem. Perfect example is drug use. By enacting more laws and making more things illegal are we any closer to solving the drug problem? California evens puts 3 strike drug offenders behind bars for quite some time and has that really solved the problem the government says we are all facing from the drug problem? Changing laws will deter a few but will not solve the problem. Changing people's minds will solve the problem. Well why would I use this for morality on pot/alcohol since I have never expressed my views on it either way?$$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1587751' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:59 PM']This is an absurd statement. Absolutely absurd. And I will repeat: It does not have to be ONE or the other. We can (and do!) teach that abortion is wrong and we (as Catholics) also fight for abortion to be illegal.[/quote] Like my posts say above, IT SEEMS TO ME people focus all their time and energy on changing laws instead of teaching God's will. Here's the thing though, will the man made laws matter at all if everyone in the entire world were to follow God's law? Would it matter if abortion was legal if everyone followed God's law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='rkwright' post='1587740' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:55 PM']I'm going to agree and disagree. It should be our goal for people to follow God's law. But the reality, like you point out, is that not everyone is going to follow God's law or even accept it. Yet we have a duty to try to make some things illegal and prohibit them in society. (We're kinda venturing into another topic, how 'moral' the law should be). There are people who still believe blacks are inferior. You can hit them over the head with facts, philosophy, ect. and they will not change. But we have a duty to ensure that not only are black people safe, but treated, at least visibly, fairly. In order to do that, we have to 'force' some people to recognize blacks as equals. Same goes with abortion. There are those who will never change and die pro-choice. We have a duty to prevent them from enacting their views because they are contrary to God's law. Most laws are this way, and most are based on some moral proposition. You'll find some people who disagree with a law in question, yet we have a duty to enforce God's law even if it somewhat means going against their free will (and just to be clear I'm not saying that because a law has a punishment people are not free. The murderer is free when he kills even though he may in some states get the death penalty.)[/quote] One last point. Making murder illegal will not change peoples minds when they're enraged. Thus we will not solve the problem. In fact there are some people who don't murder others because they're worried about prison even though they believe the person probably deserves to die. Do we abandon our murder laws because they don't really solve the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1587765' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:05 PM']... Changing laws will deter a few but will not solve the problem. Changing people's minds will solve the problem. Well why would I use this for morality on pot/alcohol since I have never expressed my views on it either way?$$ ...[/quote] I wasn't necessarily addressing you with my earlier statment. You are still setting up false dichotomies by the way. The reality is that deterents [i]can [/i]be educational. A legislative deterent is more likely to put an individual in a position where they are more open to the ideology behind the law. I think in my own personal experience, the way I have come around on the birth control issue compared to what I believe in high school was because of Church, clergy, and gf deterents. Sure, I could have gone on believing what I did...but because of the Church laws on the issue I was open to the education which in turn reformed my conscience on contraception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='rkwright' post='1587752' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:59 PM']I think this sounds similar to the sex ed class debate. Do we teach safe sex or abstinence? Getting people tested, IMHO, encourages the activity. It the same thing as saying "Well if you're going to do it, then get tested." Instead we should be, like you said, changing peoples minds, by saying "Don't do it, its wrong."[/quote] I see what your saying but this to me is different than abstinance. Having pre marital sex in and of itself will more than likely not kill someone. Having premarital sex with someone who has AIDS could very will kill you. I think we should teach God's law about abstiance but like I said not everyone will conform to our ideas and even if they all did, it would not happen over night. In the mean time so many people world wide are infected by this horrible disease because they don't know they have it. This is a different matter in itself because this is like a plague that is growing and growing and growing. Let's just jump off the sex thing. Fact is AIDS can be spread more than just sex, yes sex is the biggest way its spread, but its not the only. People need to know if they are infected. If this was only a STD then I might think different, but this disease can be spread byn other means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1587773' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:09 PM']... Here's the thing though, will the man made laws matter at all if everyone in the entire world were to follow God's law? Would it matter if abortion was legal if everyone followed God's law?[/quote] You are dawdling into meaningless abstraction with questions like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1587754' date='Jul 1 2008, 12:00 AM']Why do you keep trying to establish a false dichotomy. Your have to get past this logical fallacy my friend.[/quote] Except for it to be false would mean that before Roe v Wade, there was never a single abortion performed in the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 (edited) [quote name='havok579257' post='1587779' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:14 PM']This is a different matter in itself because this is like a plague that is growing and growing and growing. Let's just jump off the sex thing. Fact is AIDS can be spread more than just sex, yes sex is the biggest way its spread, but its not the only. People need to know if they are infected. If this was only a STD then I might think different, but this disease can be spread byn other means.[/quote] For once in this thread, I concur. Edited July 1, 2008 by Veridicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1587781' date='Jul 1 2008, 12:15 AM']Except for it to be false would mean that before Roe v Wade, there was never a single abortion performed in the USA.[/quote] Uh, no. Look up false dichotomy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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