National H I V Testing Day

[Alycin]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1587685' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:30 PM']Are you serious? Are you really serious? Your going to use a poor choice of words as your argument basis? So sorry, guess we're all not as perfectly literate as you. Some of us are actually human and make mistakes when typing but obviously you choose to ignore the mistake and try to use it as argument.[/quote]

No... I am far from perfect... FAR FAR FAR from perfect... "as far as the east is from the west"...

that being said, your inconsistencies and contradicting arguments defeat themselves... as other have already pointed out... if you would like to refute someone... try refuting them... cause I am done here.

[havok579257]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1587506' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:03 PM']Then people who will sleep with people without knowing them well enough to inquire about their health status will get sick. That's the risk of being promiscuous.[/quote]


Mistakes happen. Every single person on this earth sins and will continue sinning till we die. One sin is not worse than any other sin in the eyes of God. Maybe someone who is devoted to God and does not want to have sex till marriage gives into temptation one night and gets HIV. It was a one time mistake, hardly promiscuous. No one is perfect. Yes some are promiscuous, but does that mean they should not be warned that the person could give them one of the worst disease known to man?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1587485' date='Jun 30 2008, 09:45 PM']With all due respect havok, you are going back and forth.

Everyone here thinks chastity should be taught, and abstinence practiced, and yet it was you that pointed out that people were going to do it anyway.

Also, I am against the death penalty so I dunno why you're trying to use that argument against me.

Thirdly, I agree that it should be available and free... it already is in many places.

[/quote]


Your the one who brought killing up, not me.

Chastity should be taught and abstinence should be taught also. Did you not read my post at all. That's what the entire post was about. Teaching people the right thing to do and not just making it illegal. Some's concious of right and wrong is a better thing to go off of than what a man made law says.

But its not free world wide and in all places, which it should be.

[Alycin]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1587698' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:34 PM']One sin is not worse than any other sin in the eyes of God.[/quote]

This is not Catholic teaching.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1587512' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:05 PM']Actually, I have read in several places that a better translation of the bible in that respect would be "thou shall not kill [i]illicitly[/i]." In the sense of capital punishment, the killing could be considered a licit retributive response under certain circumstances. I am not saying I am a proponent of the death penalty, but I thought that translational issue should be addressed.

There is a big ethical difference once a state (especially a democratically run state) legalizes and funds abortions, which are the killing of human fetuses. If an individual pursues abortion, it is always on their head; once a state accepts and aids in that abortion, it scandalizes all of its people in the act. Your argument is like saying we should be willing to drive our pregnant friend to the abortion clinic because she is gonna get there anyway if she wants to. We have a moral obligation NOT to drive her regardless of whether we believe our refusal to participate will have any effect on her decision to go or not.[/quote]




That is nothing like my argument. In your example one is actually furthering the abortion process. I never said anything like that. We do have a moral obligation, but our obligation is to teach people what is right and wrong according to God. If anyone really thinks that making abortion illegal will make the problem of abortion end, then they are kidding themselfs. As is evident with drug use, makings something legal or illegal matters not to the comman man. But making one realize that taking a life, a life that has yet to be offically born is wrong will do something.

Change a law and you change a few abortions a year but will never make a serious dent in tghe problem. People will still have them. Although change someone's mind and you can solve the abortion problem for good. Just look at Jesus when he was alive. Did he go around trying to get everyone to change the laws according to God's will? No, he went around teaching what was right and wrong according to God's will. He was getting people to change their minds, not just the laws. That way, no matter WHAT the laws were, people would follow God's law and not MAN'S law. Yet, it seems to many people are more worried about changing man's law than teaching people God's law. It seems some people would rather force God's will on people, thus not changing people's minds at all and not fixing the problem, except for on the surface. Instead we should focus on teaching God's law so people will not want to abort children even if it is legal. it won't matter because people will follow God's law instead of man's law. That should be our goal.

[Alycin]

Oh and of course we should teach that the things are wrong--but they should also be illegal.


It doesn't have to be one or the other, and I will go so far as to speak for everyone in this thread, other than you, in saying that no one was suggesting such a thing.

Okay.

Nevermind.

I can't promise to leave when you keep posting things that are false.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Alycin

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1587717' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:46 PM']Oh and of course we should teach that the things are wrong--but they should also be illegal.
It doesn't have to be one or the other, and I will go so far as to speak for everyone in this thread, other than you, in saying that no one was suggesting such a thing.

Okay.

I'm really leaving this time.

Goodbye.[/quote]


I echo everything Alycin just said...everything.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1587692' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:32 PM']So you are not in favor of legal abortion, but you are stating that you don't think there is any merit in trying to make abortion illegal...?[/quote]


I am saying I am against it and trying to change man's law will not matter in the fight against abortion. Changing people's minds on abortion being wrong will change the abortion battle. If we just change the law, then people will still think abortion is a valiad and ok option and will seek it by illegal means. Teaching somoene that abortion is wrong will solve the problem. If everyone in the world thinks abortion is wrong then will it matter if abortion is legal? It won't matter if everyone thinks its wrong. Although on the flip side, will all abortions stop if we just focus on making it illegal and not focus on teaching people why its wrong?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1587717' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:46 PM']Oh and of course we should teach that the things are wrong--but they should also be illegal.
It doesn't have to be one or the other, and I will go so far as to speak for everyone in this thread, other than you, in saying that no one was suggesting such a thing.

Okay.

Nevermind.

I can't promise to leave when you keep posting things that are false.[/quote]

I thought your were done like 4 posts above this one?

[Alycin]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1587716' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:46 PM']Change a law and you change a few abortions a year but will never make a serious dent in tghe problem.[/quote]

That is a lie perpetuated by the pro-choice crowd and I am deeply saddened that you bought into it.


"Abortion advocates also claim that a million American women each year were undergoing illegal abortions before Roe v. Wade. Statistics from the Centers for Disease Control show that these statements are highly misleading. The CDC reports that after abortion was legalized in January 1973, there were 615,831 legal abortions. In 1976, when there were 988,267 abortions. There weren't over a million legal abortions a year in the United States until the end of 1977, five years after abortion was made legal in all states.

Abortion was legal in a handful of states ( New York, Alaska, Hawaii, Washington, New Jersey, Vermont, and California) before Roe v. Wade and the CDC reports that there were 586,760 legal abortions in 1972."

[url="http://www.rirtl.org/site/page.php?s=01_01_10"]Source[/url]

Cutting a number in half sure sounds like "making a dent" to me.

[havok579257]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1587693' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:33 PM']I agree with you to an extent, bad things will always happen. But it doesn't mean we should make bad things illegally.

People are always going to murder other people. It doesn't mean we as a society don't say 'murder is wrong, and were going to outlaw it'

People are probably always going to find ways to abort their babies. But we as a society have a responsibility to say 'abortion is wrong and were going to outlaw it"

AIDs is probably here to stay. We have a responsibility to say "pre-martial sex is wrong and we won't stand for anything that encourages it".

Same with almost any sort of vice crime. Prostitution is the oldest trade on the books; yet we don't make it 'safer' to acquire these things because they are wrong.[/quote]

I really don't think free HIV tests promotes free sex with all. It promotes saftey for everyone. I don't see how free HIV tests encourges anything.

[rkwright]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1587716' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:46 PM']That is nothing like my argument. In your example one is actually furthering the abortion process. I never said anything like that. We do have a moral obligation, but our obligation is to teach people what is right and wrong according to God. If anyone really thinks that making abortion illegal will make the problem of abortion end, then they are kidding themselfs. As is evident with drug use, makings something legal or illegal matters not to the comman man. But making one realize that taking a life, a life that has yet to be offically born is wrong will do something.

Change a law and you change a few abortions a year but will never make a serious dent in tghe problem. People will still have them. Although change someone's mind and you can solve the abortion problem for good. Just look at Jesus when he was alive. Did he go around trying to get everyone to change the laws according to God's will? No, he went around teaching what was right and wrong according to God's will. He was getting people to change their minds, not just the laws. That way, no matter WHAT the laws were, people would follow God's law and not MAN'S law. Yet, it seems to many people are more worried about changing man's law than teaching people God's law. It seems some people would rather force God's will on people, thus not changing people's minds at all and not fixing the problem, except for on the surface. Instead we should focus on teaching God's law so people will not want to abort children even if it is legal. it won't matter because people will follow God's law instead of man's law. That should be our goal.[/quote]

I'm going to agree and disagree. It should be our goal for people to follow God's law. But the reality, like you point out, is that not everyone is going to follow God's law or even accept it. Yet we have a duty to try to make some things illegal and prohibit them in society. (We're kinda venturing into another topic, how 'moral' the law should be).

There are people who still believe blacks are inferior. You can hit them over the head with facts, philosophy, ect. and they will not change. But we have a duty to ensure that not only are black people safe, but treated, at least visibly, fairly. In order to do that, we have to 'force' some people to recognize blacks as equals.

Same goes with abortion. There are those who will never change and die pro-choice. We have a duty to prevent them from enacting their views because they are contrary to God's law.

Most laws are this way, and most are based on some moral proposition. You'll find some people who disagree with a law in question, yet we have a duty to enforce God's law even if it somewhat means going against their free will (and just to be clear I'm not saying that because a law has a punishment people are not free. The murderer is free when he kills even though he may in some states get the death penalty.)

[Alycin]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1587733' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:52 PM']I thought your were done like 4 posts above this one?[/quote]

"I can't promise to leave when you keep posting things that are false."

[Veridicus]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1587729' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:51 PM']...Although on the flip side, will all abortions stop if we just focus on making it illegal and not focus on teaching people why its wrong?[/quote]

You are attempting to set up false dichotomies that no one here but yourself is positing. We are for education [i]and [/i]legislation. One without the other is futile as I think you are trying to say. The reality is that legislating against abortion is a major step in educating people and affecting their decisions. I do not smoke weed because it is illegal and I know if I get caught with weed I will never be able to practice medicine. I myself do not necessarily think that weed is much worse than alcohol (which is legal for me as a 22 year old)...but the legislative deterrent and its subsequent consequences are enough to keep me from EVER smoking weed. Legislation works because it IS a deterent. I don't smoke pot because it is illegal...not necessarily because I have been convinced in and of itself that it is more or less moral than alcohol.

Please do not turn this post into an oppotunity to begin arguing the morality of pot/alcohol. I merely used this as a personal example and analogy to demonstrate my point.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1587738' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:54 PM']That is a lie perpetuated by the pro-choice crowd and I am deeply saddened that you bought into it.
"Abortion advocates also claim that a million American women each year were undergoing illegal abortions before Roe v. Wade. Statistics from the Centers for Disease Control show that these statements are highly misleading. The CDC reports that after abortion was legalized in January 1973, there were 615,831 legal abortions. In 1976, when there were 988,267 abortions. There weren't over a million legal abortions a year in the United States until the end of 1977, five years after abortion was made legal in all states.

Abortion was legal in a handful of states ( New York, Alaska, Hawaii, Washington, New Jersey, Vermont, and California) before Roe v. Wade and the CDC reports that there were 586,760 legal abortions in 1972."

[url="http://www.rirtl.org/site/page.php?s=01_01_10"]Source[/url]

Cutting a number in half sure sounds like "making a dent" to me.[/quote]


Those are all estimated numbers which are not reliable in this case since everyone who is doing something illegally is not going to just talk about it later on.

I am not buying into any argument of saying keep abortion legal which it appears you have read into once again.

I'll simplfy it. Abortion is wrong. We will never end abortion by just changing the laws. We will only end abortion by teaching God's will and what is right and wrong in his eyes. We should focus on teaching people what is right and wrong.