Aloysius Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 hot stuff, you are creating contradiction where there is none... logically, it makes sense that justice demands that some sins be more punished than others, it is as simple as that. neither Augustine nor the Catechism contradict that idea... and I defy you to show me where Church teaching contradicts my basic common sense; because if it does then I'll question the common sense, so far you have not shown that. I don't want to get into whether homosexual acts are better or worse than heterosexual fornication, because while there is probably some degree of difference they're very similar sins on a very similar level... I'm more concerned with the theoretical "is genocide worse than masturbation?" and then if so, "does not justice demand that genocide be punished worse than masturbation?". the question is: are there levels in hell? to claim that it is not Catholic thought that there would be levels in hell is absolutely absurd because that is a very Catholic intuition that doesn't just show itself in Dante or Aquinas but all throughout the history of the Church... it would be a novel idea as far as I know to claim that there is no hierarchy in hell... would you care to point me to where exactly this idea is coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1597436' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:28 PM']hot stuff, you are creating contradiction where there is none... logically, it makes sense that justice demands that some sins be more punished than others, it is as simple as that. neither Augustine nor the Catechism contradict that idea... and I defy you to show me where Church teaching contradicts my basic common sense; because if it does then I'll question the common sense, so far you have not shown that. I don't want to get into whether homosexual acts are better or worse than heterosexual fornication, because while there is probably some degree of difference they're very similar sins on a very similar level... I'm more concerned with the theoretical "is genocide worse than masturbation?" and then if so, "does not justice demand that genocide be punished worse than masturbation?". the question is: are there levels in hell? to claim that it is not Catholic thought that there would be levels in hell is absolutely absurd because that is a very Catholic intuition that doesn't just show itself in Dante or Aquinas but all throughout the history of the Church... it would be a novel idea as far as I know to claim that there is no hierarchy in hell... would you care to point me to where exactly this idea is coming from?[/quote] Al what's the punishment for dieing with a mortal sin on your soul according to the Church? And where does it say that one mortal sin is greater than another? It doesn't. I don't care if there are levels of hell or not. Mortal sin gets you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofJPII Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1597442' date='Jul 10 2008, 10:35 PM']Al what's the punishment for dieing with a mortal sin on your soul according to the Church? And where does it say that one mortal sin is greater than another? It doesn't. I don't care if there are levels of hell or not. Mortal sin gets you there.[/quote] hot stuff, logic will tell you that while most of the population has commited sins that are mortal some people are more evil than others. You will never convince me that the teenager that struggles with masterbation is on the same level as an abortion doctor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1597451' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:43 PM']hot stuff, logic will tell you that while most of the population has commited sins that are mortal some people are more evil than others. You will never convince me that the teenager that struggles with masterbation is on the same level as an abortion doctor.[/quote] I didn't say there weren't more evil people or less. I'm saying that according to the Church and the Catechism, mortal sins incur one punishment. Nowhere in Church teaching does it proclaim that there are different levels of hell. Is there? I don't know and neither do you. I know what the Church teaches and I've shown it. If you disagree with it, then you need to understand the teachings of the Church better. The Church teaches that masturbation, premarital sex and homosexual acts are all grave sins against Chastity. It doesn't say one is more grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1597436' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:28 PM']". the question is: are there levels in hell? to claim that it is not Catholic thought that there would be levels in hell is absolutely absurd because that is a very Catholic intuition that doesn't just show itself in Dante or Aquinas but all throughout the history of the Church... it would be a novel idea as far as I know to claim that there is no hierarchy in hell... would you care to point me to where exactly this idea is coming from?[/quote] Al show me where the Church has infallibly taught that there are different levels of hell? Because as much as I understand, all of it comes from Dante and visions of saints. Dante is fiction and private revelations of heaven, hell or purgatory have not been accepted as fact . ( None of the saints seem to ever have the same vision anyway) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 yeah, I am saying the Church has not taught that there are NOT different levels of hell and it is a widespread and longstanding Catholic belief that there is... nothing you have quoted contradicts that and the Summa Theologica affirms it, so for you to claim that those who believe that have a theology that smells of elderberries (lol) is completely out of line. yes, the Church says mortal sin leads you to hell... and widespread popular Catholic belief is that there are different levels of hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1597512' date='Jul 11 2008, 12:26 AM']yeah, I am saying the Church has not taught that there are NOT different levels of hell and it is a widespread and longstanding Catholic belief that there is... nothing you have quoted contradicts that and the Summa Theologica affirms it, so for you to claim that those who believe that have a theology that smells of elderberries (lol) is completely out of line. yes, the Church says mortal sin leads you to hell... and widespread popular Catholic belief is that there are different levels of hell.[/quote] you're questioning my logic yet you are standing by "YesI'm sayin the Church has not taught that there aren't different levels of hell" your argument is a dante and a double negative. Yeah I'd say that kind of theological thinking is a bit off. And really none of you have even come close to arguing against the point of my original post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 +J.M.J.+ i'm just gonna point out a couple of things. [quote name='hot stuff' post='1597379' date='Jul 10 2008, 09:00 PM']Good thing Soc has me on ignore so he can't see me say how bad his theology smells of elderberries. He likes to pick and choose what he likes. While St Thomas is a doctor of the Church, he is also not infallible in the Summa. Nor does the Church claim that the Summa is infallible.[/quote] and neither is St. Augustine infallible, right? just pointing that out. [quote name='Socrates' post='1597420' date='Jul 10 2008, 09:17 PM']hot stuff is on "ignore," as he has been for some time. I'm not afraid of him; I simply do not wish to waste time with his personal attacks.[/quote] hot stuff isn't the only one who 'wastes time' with personal attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1597520' date='Jul 11 2008, 12:33 AM']+J.M.J.+ i'm just gonna point out a couple of things. and neither is St. Augustine infallible, right? just pointing that out. hot stuff isn't the only one who 'wastes time' with personal attacks. [/quote] Actually his teaching on the definition of mortal sin is infallible. St Thomas's teaching on sodomy being the most grievious sin, to my knowledge, is not held as infallible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1597524' date='Jul 10 2008, 10:37 PM']Actually his teaching on the definition of mortal sin is infallible.[/quote] +J.M.J.+ really? i never knew that. could you link me please? thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofJPII Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1597493' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:10 PM']I didn't say there weren't more evil people or less. I'm saying that according to the Church and the Catechism, mortal sins incur one punishment. Nowhere in Church teaching does it proclaim that there are different levels of hell. Is there? I don't know and neither do you. I know what the Church teaches and I've shown it. If you disagree with it, then you need to understand the teachings of the Church better. The Church teaches that masturbation, premarital sex and homosexual acts are all grave sins against Chastity. It doesn't say one is more grave.[/quote] The gravity really depends on the individual commiting the sin, because that is what sin is ---an [i][b]act [/[/b]i] commited by another. However, speaking in generalities, homosexuality is direct attack on the created order of the sexes and the rite of procreation. The homosexual agenda seeks to redefine the created reality...."i.e. the pregnant man..." and I think that is what people are reacting to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofJPII Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 "If I speak with tounges of men and of angels, but have not love, I am but a clanging bell..." Let's debate in charity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1597525' date='Jul 11 2008, 12:37 AM']+J.M.J.+ really? i never knew that. could you link me please? thanks.[/quote] 1871 Sin is an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law (St. Augustine, Faust 22: PL 42, 418). It is an offense against God. It rises up against God in a disobedience contrary to the obedience of Christ. <a name="PROLIFERATION"> that's the catechism quoting him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1597528' date='Jul 11 2008, 12:41 AM']"If I speak with tounges of men and of angels, but have not love, I am but a clanging bell..." Let's debate in charity.[/quote] I don't think I've been uncharitable (I've not used sport once) I've quoted Church doctrine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1597526' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:38 PM']The gravity really depends on the individual commiting the sin, because that is what sin is ---an [i][b]act [/[/b]i] commited by another. However, speaking in generalities, homosexuality is direct attack on the created order of the sexes and the rite of procreation. The homosexual agenda seeks to redefine the created reality...."i.e. the pregnant man..." and I think that is what people are reacting to.[/quote] Same could be said of masturbation and many more people struggle with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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