Homosexuals And Our Attitude Towards Them

[ardillacid]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1596895' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:03 AM']all mortal sins can lead you to hell, they are all equally bad.

This is why I generally jump into these debates and get accused by small thinkers that I'm pro-gay, I tire of people inferring that one mortal sin is worse than the others.[/quote]
Perhaps you could expound on this. I'm don't have a flag under my name ( ) but this does seem right to me. Clarification would be great

[friendofJPII]

I am not rambling. When I was growing up (and I'm not that old, I'm a Generation X-er) the debate was wheather homosexual activity was acceptable. Now that we have accepted homosexual activity (that issue isn't even debated anymore), we must now afford them the right to marry. It's the gay-agenda. The sin snowball effect.

Why are people so interested in topics of homosexuality? I don't know, why don't you set up a poll and ask them directly? I think my theory is correct, however. People are interested because this is the hot topic in the news and in their college classrooms. Others have friends or relatives who are involved in the lifestyle and want to know what to make of it.

But if you want people to initiate more discussions concerning heterosexual sex, I'm sure your fellow phatmassers will abide by your wishes. From what I've observed, phatmassers love to talk about sex, period!

[Jaime]

[quote name='notardillacid' post='1597253' date='Jul 10 2008, 07:56 PM']Perhaps you could expound on this. I'm don't have a flag under my name ( ) but this does seem right to me. Clarification would be great[/quote]

The Church teaches

[quote][b]1035 [/b]The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those [b]who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell[/b], where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.[/quote]

There is no greater punishment than eternal separation from God. One mortal sin does not have a greater punishment than another. The potential punishment is equal. One cannot be separated from God and someone else "really really separated".

[friendofJPII]

I would also like to make this point, when you see a heterosexual in public displaying PDA, you might be a little uncomfortable, but you are probably not filled with feelings of disgust (depending on what they are doing), because it is natural on some level.

However, if you witness a gay couple displaying PDA, you (or at least I) get a little queasy, because it just doesn't look right. It's disordered. I believe this gut reaction is an indication of the gravity of the sin.

Edited July 11, 2008 by friendofJPII

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1597258' date='Jul 10 2008, 07:03 PM']The Church teaches
There is no greater punishment than eternal separation from God. One mortal sin does not have a greater punishment than another. The potential punishment is equal. One cannot be separated from God and someone else "really really separated".[/quote]


I have to check on this, but I believe their are different levels of hell just like there are different levels of heaven. I know St. Faustina saw a vision of hell and talks about different punishments administered according to what sins the person commited in her diary , although you are right in the sense that once you are there (heaven or hell) your "apartment number" reallywon't make a difference in your mood.

Edited July 11, 2008 by friendofJPII

[Jaime]

[quote]Less than 1% of the population is presently involved in terrorist plots.[/quote]

4 threads on terrorists

[XIX]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1597258' date='Jul 10 2008, 09:03 PM']The Church teaches
There is no greater punishment than eternal separation from God. One mortal sin does not have a greater punishment than another. The potential punishment is equal. One cannot be separated from God and someone else "really really separated".[/quote]
Yeah but you could say the opposite about Heaven, yet we all know that there are varying degrees of glory in Heaven. The Catechism says that the chief punishment of Hell is eternal fire, but that doesn't mean it's the only punishment. Just like in Heaven, where the chief reward is eternal unity with the Lord, yet there are varying degrees of glory in Heaven. I think it's reasonable to suppose that, likewise, there are varying degrees of suffering in Hell.



However I do agree with your original point that we as Catholics have a bit of an obsession with bashing homosexuality. I don't see half the backlash against hetero trashy movies that I saw against Brokeback Mountain (and even then, the most offensive scenes in that movie were heterosexual scenes). Most trashy romance films lionize premarital sex like it is something incredible, glorifying heterosexual fornication at least as much as (and probably more than) Brokeback glorifies homosexual sex. Yet Brokeback Mountain is considered the controversial black sheep of the bunch.

That I don't get. Just to be clear I am not justifying the Brokeback Mountain movie--it sent a bad message and it wasn't even a good movie--I'm just saying that we have a far greater capacity to overlook heterosexual trashiness.

[Justin86]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1597267' date='Jul 11 2008, 09:28 AM']4 threads on terrorists[/quote]

How many threads on waterboarding? Mmmm, that's always fun.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1597291' date='Jul 10 2008, 09:08 PM']How many threads on waterboarding? Mmmm, that's always fun.[/quote]

I think you're overreacting

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1597267' date='Jul 10 2008, 07:28 PM']4 threads on terrorists[/quote]


What's your point? There should more threads on terrorism, I suppose, but we all know that sex sells, even on phatmass!

[friendofJPII]

[i]That I don't get. Just to be clear I am not justifying the Brokeback Mountain movie--it sent a bad message and it wasn't even a good movie--I'm just saying that we have a far greater capacity to overlook heterosexual trashiness.[/i]

Good point. That is one point that isn't stressed about in Catholic circles, even orthodox ones. We need to be much more selective about what we watch.

[Socrates]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1596982' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:53 AM']I thought Jamie made a pretty good argument that 1) all mortal sins are equal and 2) the way you say homosexuality is worse (scandal to society) can be equally applied to the sins I listed.

Are we talking about making things illegal? I thought we were talking about sin.

Edit: i shouldn't have jumped in... I was bored, jamie has it covered...[/quote]
[mod]personal attack - Lil Red[/mod] the idea that all mortal sins are equal is NOT Catholic teaching, and in fact, is absurd nonsense.
If we were to truly believe that ridiculous statement, then we would be forced to come to the conclusion that a kid masturbating is every bit as evil as genocide! (Hey, they're both mortal sins!) And I don't think anyone here is really ready to argue that!

This is not to excuse or make light of any mortal sin, but obviously there are varying degrees of evil, including of mortal sin. This has been the consistent teaching of the Church, in addition to being just plain common sense.

The Angelic Doctor, Saint Thomas Aquinas, in fact spends a fair amount of time in his [i]Summa Theologica[/i] discussing which sins are graver than others. The fact that some mortal sins are greater than others is something taken for granted in his theology.

St. Thomas in the [i]Summa Theologica: Secunda Secundae Pars[/i], Question 154, Article 12, answers the question, [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm#article12"]"Whether the unnatural vice [Sodomy] is the greatest sin among the species of lust?"[/url]
He answers in the affirmative:[quote]On the contrary,[b] Augustine says (De adult. conjug. [The quotation is from Cap. Adulterii xxxii, qu. 7. Cf. Augustine, De Bono Conjugali, viii.]) that "of all these," namely the sins belonging to lust, "that which is against nature is the worst."
[/b]
I answer that, In every genus, worst of all is the corruption of the principle on which the rest depend. Now the principles of reason are those things that are according to nature, because reason presupposes things as determined by nature, before disposing of other things according as it is fitting. This may be observed both in speculative and in practical matters. Wherefore just as in speculative matters the most grievous and shameful error is that which is about things the knowledge of which is naturally bestowed on man, so in matters of action it is most grave and shameful to act against things as determined by nature.[b] Therefore, since by the unnatural vices man transgresses that which has been determined by nature with regard to the use of venereal actions, it follows that in this matter this sin is gravest of all.[/b] After it comes incest, which, as stated above (Article 9), is contrary to the natural respect which we owe persons related to us.

With regard to the other species of lust they imply a transgression merely of that which is determined by right reason, on the presupposition, however, of natural principles. Now it is more against reason to make use of the venereal act not only with prejudice to the future offspring, but also so as to injure another person besides. Wherefore simple fornication, which is committed without injustice to another person, is the least grave among the species of lust. Then, it is a greater injustice to have intercourse with a woman who is subject to another's authority as regards the act of generation, than as regards merely her guardianship. Wherefore adultery is more grievous than seduction. And both of these are aggravated by the use of violence. Hence rape of a virgin is graver than seduction, and rape of a wife than adultery. And all these are aggravated by coming under the head of sacrilege, as stated above (10, ad 2).[/quote]

That should put to rest both the idea that all mortal sins are at the same level of gravity, and that sodomy is no worse than other sexual sins.
(Read the whole section on the sins of lust here:[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm"] "Question 154. The parts of Lust"[/url])

Homosexual sins are particularly depraved, and the current push to "legitimize" them in our society is something that Catholics should oppose.

And this matter of enough importance to the Church that the CDF (then headed by Card. Ratzinger, our current Holy Father) published a document opposing homosexual "marriages" and "civil unions": [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html"]CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING PROPOSALS TO GIVE LEGAL RECOGNITION TO UNIONS BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS[/url], which concludes:[quote]The Church teaches that respect for homosexual persons cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behaviour or to legal recognition of homosexual unions. The common good requires that laws recognize, promote and protect marriage as the basis of the family, the primary unit of society. Legal recognition of homosexual unions or placing them on the same level as marriage would mean not only the approval of deviant behaviour, with the consequence of making it a model in present-day society, but would also obscure basic values which belong to the common inheritance of humanity. The Church cannot fail to defend these values, for the good of men and women and for the good of society itself.[/quote]

And if anyone thinks that it is not worth their while to defend the Church's teachings in this matter, then he should just refrain from posting in threads on that topic. It's that simple.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1597330' date='Jul 10 2008, 09:29 PM']Despite what certain puppets of modern liberal ideology might tell you, the idea that all mortal sins are equal is NOT Catholic teaching, and in fact, is absurd nonsense.
If we were to truly believe that ridiculous statement, then we would be forced to come to the conclusion that a kid masturbating is every bit as evil as genocide! (Hey, they're both mortal sins!) And I don't think anyone here is really ready to argue that!

This is not to excuse or make light of any mortal sin, but obviously there are varying degrees of evil, including of mortal sin. This has been the consistent teaching of the Church, in addition to being just plain common sense.

The Angelic Doctor, Saint Thomas Aquinas, in fact spends a fair amount of time in his [i]Summa Theologica[/i] discussing which sins are graver than others. The fact that some mortal sins are greater than others is something taken for granted in his theology.

St. Thomas in the [i]Summa Theologica: Secunda Secundae Pars[/i], Question 154, Article 12, answers the question, [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm#article12"]"Whether the unnatural vice [Sodomy] is the greatest sin among the species of lust?"[/url]
He answers in the affirmative:

That should put to rest both the idea that all mortal sins are at the same level of gravity, and that sodomy is no worse than other sexual sins.
(Read the whole section on the sins of lust here:[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm"] "Question 154. The parts of Lust"[/url])

Homosexual sins are particularly depraved, and the current push to "legitimize" them in our society is something that Catholics should oppose.

And this matter of enough importance to the Church that the CDF (then headed by Card. Ratzinger, our current Holy Father) published a document opposing homosexual "marriages" and "civil unions": [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html"]CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING PROPOSALS TO GIVE LEGAL RECOGNITION TO UNIONS BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS[/url], which concludes:

And if anyone thinks that it is not worth their while to defend the Church's teachings in this matter, then he should just refrain from posting in threads on that topic. It's that simple.[/quote]

So Jamie goes on to defend this for 2 pages, and you pick out my one post where I said that I agree with Jamie and am out of this thread... what is your problem? Do you have something personal against me, or are you just to scared to get into it against Jamie?

Secondly, your post does nothing to address Jamie's position. Good information though.

[Jaime]

Good thing Soc has me on ignore so he can't see me say how bad his theology smells of elderberries. He likes to pick and choose what he likes. While St Thomas is a doctor of the Church, he is also not infallible in the Summa. Nor does the Church claim that the Summa is infallible.

The definition of mortal sin came from his predecessor Augustine. I've stated it already. Soc just came along to be a bright shining example of what i was talking about in my first post here.

And yes the Church does teach that homosexual acts are intrinsically evil. The same as premarital sex masturbation and contraception.

It does not say eviler.

[quote]2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.[/quote]

I'll see your summa and raise you the catechism

[Socrates]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1597366' date='Jul 10 2008, 09:55 PM']So Jamie goes on to defend this for 2 pages, and you pick out my one post where I said that I agree with Jamie and am out of this thread... what is your problem? Do you have something personal against me, or are you just to scared to get into it against Jamie?

Secondly, your post does nothing to address Jamie's position. Good information though.[/quote]
hot stuff is on "ignore," as he has been for some time. I'm not afraid of him; I simply do not wish to waste time with his personal attacks. However, I read that quote of him, as well as others, and felt that the truth should be clarified regarding the "all mortal sins are equal" line.
That is simply [i]not[/i] Church teaching, and is contrary to reason, and to the constant tradition of the Church.
And if hot stuff or anyone else has a problem with people posting in threads concerning questions about homosexuality, they should just stay out of them, rather than post in them attacking those who defend Church teaching.

Enough said. Good night.