Homosexuals And Our Attitude Towards Them

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1596994' date='Jul 10 2008, 12:17 PM'][i]Nice change btw

Ok so let me ask you this

Both premarital sex and homosexual acts are mortal sins.

2-10% are involved in one

over half the single population is engaging in the other

50% of women engage in masturbation 90% of men

What is a greater threat and what needs to be talked about more? If the answer still is gay marriage, then you're going against statistics.[/i][/quote]

I think they both need to be talked about....a discussion about chastity usually involves a discussion of homosexuality as well.

But let me ask you....

I thnk it is safe to say that 99% of the population struggles with sins against chastity of some sort (impure thoughts included).

Less than 1% of the population is presently involved in terrorist plots.

Who has the potential to do greater harm?

If you are asking me who God will punish more on an individual level, I don't know that, because there are so many variables involved. But common sense will tell you that we need to place our energies into the gay marriage debate, becasue that is what is unfolding at the present time n our culture. I don't think you realize how this agenda will effect the rest of us, and our children. Those on the left are seeking to redefine "male" an "female." It's very scary.

Edited July 10, 2008 by friendofJPII

[Lisieux Flower]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1596895' date='Jul 10 2008, 10:03 AM']You know I don't think its totally unfounded if people feel that phatmass folks have a negative attitude towards homosexuals. I think they're right. And a simple search supports that. I did a quick and simple search for topics about various mortal sins

masturbation 12 threads
pornography 13 threads
premarital sex 5 threads

homosexuality 49 threads

Granted its just a cursory search. If you want to delve into it more deeply, have at it. But statistically speaking, if 2% of phatmass (or 10% whatever) deals directly with the issue of homosexuality, it stands to reason there are more pholks struggling with masturbation, pornography and premarital sex. Yet we've been a bit focused on the homosexuals.

I myself have been accused of having a "pro-gay agenda" from several pholks who do not ever seem to quite live up to their screen names. And of course when I ask them to demonstrate any place on phatmass that I've contradicted Church teachings on the subject, the shut up immediately.

So why are we apparently overly concerned with homosexuals? I will throw out to plausible theories. One, I believe there are some people who think there is a hierarchy of mortal sins and homosexual acts are the worst of them. Here's the real fact,

all mortal sins can lead you to hell, they are all equally bad.


Oh and the second reason? Its easier to point out someone elses flaws than it is to deal with your own struggles. In my years at PM I have yet to see one ranter on one of these threads ever post anywhere "yes I struggle with...."

This is why I generally jump into these debates and get accused by small thinkers that I'm pro-gay, I tire of people inferring that one mortal sin is worse than the others.

So yeah I think we could possibly (if you go by the numbers) use our time to focus on struggles pertaining to more pholks. As demonstrated by Aly's thread on masturbation, it can generate some beneficial discussion (sidenote: I find it interesting that the same people who love to rant on homosexual threads have been critical against Aly's thread)[/quote]
I think the reason there are so many threads about homosexuality is because it's a mortal sin that is so prevalent in our society and many of us can't identify with it. Personally, I can understand how someone can be tempted to prematrial sex and masturbation (I'm not saying I've done these things, but I can understand the temptation), but I don't understand the temptation to have sex with someone of the same gender. But one of my best friends participates in homosexual activity, and I don't know what to say or do, and I especially don't know what attitude to have towards him when he talks about it. Should I be understanding because he doesn't share my beliefs? Should I be disappointed because it is such a moral sin? I really care about him, and I want what's best for him, but I don't know what to do or say. I think it's awesome that Christians are discussing homosexuality and how to lovingly but firmly share our views of it.

I still don't know how to be loving but still firmly oppose homosexuality to my friend. I don't want to lose his friendship, but I want him to see what he's doing is wrong.

And I'm sad you guys hijacked this thread

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1597000' date='Jul 10 2008, 12:28 PM']Also would you like to actually address the fact that you seem to contradict Augustine on this?

Or would you prefer to keep up spewing out stuff?[/quote]


I did not contradict Augustine. I have affirmed that heterosexual sins are a violation of natural law.

Certain sins are more scandalous than others, however...esp. public sins that can lead children astray, Jesus said so himself. Right now, what is the pressing issue on the table? homosexual marriage.

[Jaime]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1597002' date='Jul 10 2008, 01:31 PM']I think they both need to be talked about....a discussion about chastity usually involves a discussion of homosexuality as well.

But let me ask you....

I thnk it is safe to say that 99% of the population struggles with sins against chastity of some sort (impure thoughts included).

Less than 1% of the population is presently involved in terrorist plots.

Who has the potential to do greater harm?

If you are asking me who God will punish more on an individual level, I don't know that, because there are so many variables involved. But common sense will tell you that we need to place our energies into the gay marriage debate, becasue that is what is unfolding at the present time n our culture. I don't think you realize how this agenda will effect the rest of us, and our children. Those on the left are seeking to redefine "male" an "female." It's very scary.[/quote]

the fact that you are jumping around and changing the subject proves that you can't even justify your own rationalizations. I'm not going to continue unless you want to actually address the points that I've made. The eventual road that your taking will lead to some mention of hitler and that bores me.

you want to have a discussion? then justify your stance that one mortal sin has a greater impact on your soul than another. Otherwise, you're just ranting

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1596996' date='Jul 10 2008, 12:24 PM']from a societal standpoint? ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?!?? Society doesn't recognize mortal sins. Talk doctrine or quit wasting my time

And I'll counter your masturbation argument. I don't know if anyone is in hell for masturbation or for running a plane into the towers. But if they are both there, I don't think the masturbator is thinking "wow I'm glad I'm not that guy". It is the total absence of God so good feelings of any degree don't exist.

and to point #2 you sound like a protestant[/quote]

You raised the question as to why we are paying attention to homosexuals. And I answered it.

Who's going where for what we don't know. The question is where to focus our energy.

[friendofJPII]

[i]you want to have a discussion? then justify your stance that one mortal sin has a greater impact on your soul than another. Otherwise, you're just ranting[/i]

I can't answer that because there are too many individual variables involved.

Edited July 10, 2008 by friendofJPII

[Apotheoun]

1. Heterosexual activity outside of marriage is always gravely sinful.
2. Homosexual activity is always gravely sinful and contrary to nature.
3. Masturbation is always gravely sinful and contrary to nature.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1597013' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:41 AM']the fact that you are jumping around and changing the subject proves that you can't even justify your own rationalizations. I'm not going to continue unless you want to actually address the points that I've made. The eventual road that your taking will lead to some mention of hitler and that bores me.

you want to have a discussion? then justify your stance that one mortal sin has a greater impact on your soul than another. Otherwise, you're just ranting[/quote]

you're insinuating that all mortal sins are equal in gravity, yet calling her thinking protestant? sounds like something a "once saved, always saved" person would think - that all sins are equal and it doesn't matter what you do anyways.

in some regards all mortal sins are equal, e.g. they all cause a death of the soul, they all separate you from God, they all are grave matter, all can be forgiven, etc. however, they can have different gravities inasmuch as one would require much greater reparation.. time/reparation spent in purgatory.. reparation to a greater amount of people, or greater amount of hurt caused to a person, etc.

one of many examples, "Jesus answered (him), "You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above. For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin."" -John 19:11.

[Jaime]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1597093' date='Jul 10 2008, 03:19 PM']you're insinuating that all mortal sins are equal in gravity, yet calling her thinking protestant? sounds like something a "once saved, always saved" person would think - that all sins are equal and it doesn't matter what you do anyways.

in some regards all mortal sins are equal, e.g. they all cause a death of the soul, they all separate you from God, they all are grave matter, all can be forgiven, etc. however, they can have different gravities inasmuch as one would require much greater reparation.. time/reparation spent in purgatory.. reparation to a greater amount of people, or greater amount of hurt caused to a person, etc.

one of many examples, "Jesus answered (him), "You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above. For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin."" -John 19:11.[/quote]

It seems that you want to make my point for me as well.

Care to demonstrate where the Church qualifies greater reparations for "greater mortal sins"?

Again you two are making my point in my first post.

[friendofJPII]

Questions like these are somewhat difficult to answer because of the conditions must be met in order to commit a mortal sin. We also have to take into account where the person is spiritual life. For example, impure thoughts might be mortally sinful for someone who is rather advanced in the spiritual life, but a venial sin for someone who is justing learning about their faith and encountering Christ. You are right that both homo and heterosexual sins can lead someone to hell if the qualifications are met. Are there degrees in hell based what sins you committed? Maybe. The thought of hell is scary and I don't want to know. But you're right, hot stuff it probably won't matter to you all that much.

Since we don't know where each person is in their spiritual life, when we talk about sins collectively, we have to look at how much damage they cause to society, how many additional souls will be led to hell as a result. We also have to take into account where our society is at the moment. We have to think about what will set a new precedent of immorality in our already wounded and society, and which sins cause the most scandal. There is also a difference between those of us who are trying to live a holy life, and occasionally fall, and those who blatantly rebel against God and the natural law. This question reminds me of a question asked by Dr. Janet Smith at Seton Hall a few years ago. Someone asked her if you know you are going to have sex, is better to use a condom to prevent preg and disease or not? If you use the condom are you sinning more grievously than if you don't? She wasn't able to answer that question on the spot.

I completely agree that we should be talking about both. And those of us who are heterosexual should not be casting stones at those who are homosexual. I don't think it is an "either or question"....both issue have to do with theology of the body. However, the Church has always taught that homosexual attractions are inherently disordered, while heterosexual attractions, are not disordered in and of themselves, although like all passions, need to be controlled. I think that is the key distinction.

Edited July 10, 2008 by friendofJPII

[Jaime]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1597217' date='Jul 10 2008, 07:01 PM']I completely agree that we should be talking about both. And those of us who are heterosexual should not be casting stones at those who are homosexual. I don't think it is an "either or question"....both issue have to do with theology of the body. However, the Church has always taught that homosexual attractions are inherently disordered, while heterosexual attractions, are not disordered in and of themselves, although like all passions, need to be controlled. I think that is the key distinction.[/quote]

Well now let's be clear because the Church does not teach that all heterosexual attractions are ordered. Lustful attraction is disordered.

However my point is this, (which you and Johnny seem to gloss over) we seem to have an inordinate amount of threads dedicated to the smallest measure of our community here at PM and that isn't productive.

[friendofJPII]

Again, this question has to deal with where you are in the spiritual life. As a result of the fall, we all struggle with lust, but hopefully, with prayer, sacrifice, and mortification, our sexual desires will someday be motivated completely by love. But as JPII said, although this is our ultimate goal, that does happen overnight. Virtues are cultivated. Saints are made, not born. Same sex attraction (love or lust) is disordered.

The reason why there are so many homosexual threads is because that is the hot topic in the news at the present time. Our country is setting a new precedent by legalizing same sex marriage and so that is what people are interested in and have questions about at the moment. Although I haven't read all the threads I don't think most phatmassers are unfairly targeting homosexuals. Because the new (definition of ) marriage precedent will affect us all and our children we have a right to be concerned. No sin is commited in a vacum.

Edited July 10, 2008 by friendofJPII

[Jaime]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1597232' date='Jul 10 2008, 07:30 PM']Again, this question has to deal with where you are in the spiritual life. As a result of the fall, we all struggle with lust, but hopefully, with prayer, sacrifice, and mortification, our sexual desires will someday be motivated completely by love. But as JPII said, although this is our ultimate goal, that does happen overnight. Virtues are cultivated. Saints are made, not born. Same sex attraction (love or lust) is disordered.

The reason why there are so many homosexual threads is because that is the hot topic in the news at the present time. Our country is setting a new precedent by legalizing same sex marriage and so that is what people are interested in and have questions about at the moment. Although I haven't read all the threads I don't think most phatmassers are unfairly targeting homosexuals. Because the new (definition of ) marriage precedent will affect us all and our children we have a right to be concerned. No sin is commited in a vacum.[/quote]


No its not. There are 49 threads since the inception of phatmass. and honestly there are very few of those that deal with homosexual marriage.

Yeah I think my point is valid

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1597241' date='Jul 10 2008, 06:41 PM']No its not. There are 49 threads since the inception of phatmass. and honestly there are very few of those that deal with homosexual marriage.

Yeah I think my point is valid[/quote]

homosexuality/homosexual marriage are one in the same. If you believe homosexual activity is licit you probably believe they should have right to marry.

[Jaime]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1597242' date='Jul 10 2008, 07:42 PM']homosexuality/homosexual marriage are one in the same. If you believe homosexual activity is licit you probably believe they should have right to marry.[/quote]
see now you're just rambling
[quote][b]The reason why there are so many homosexual threads is because that is the hot topic in the news at the present time.[/b][/quote]

again, its 49 threads since the phorum started. Don't just randomly throw stuff out there.