Homosexuals And Our Attitude Towards Them

[Jaime]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1599237' date='Jul 13 2008, 03:35 PM']hot stuff, do you disagree with this?

I don't pretend that everything that comes out of my mouth is directly Church teaching... but I do propose everything I say that I'm certain about as if it were fact... I would think anyone would be able to tell that everything I say that is not backed up is just my opinion, though now we have provided Church teaching backing up what we were saying thanks to KnightofChrist and Fr. Ripperger.[/quote]

I don't know. I don't remember everything from all the councils but if its true, great. Honestly I don't really care either way. But actual quotes from the councils would be beneficial since a cursory look at the results of those don't talk about hell at all.


[quote]in any event, the Church certainly doesn't teach chastity is black and white (that is quite absurd and I've never gotten that impression from anything the Church has said, please show anywhere that the Church treats all sins against chastity on an equal level) and there certainly are varying degrees of gravity amongst mortal sins. now of course when dealing with your own personal sins, treat them as if they are the worst ones because you do not have any idea about the culpability level of anyone other than yourself and for all you know everyone else could way less culpable for what they do (even if what they do is worse in levels of gravity)... but when talking about them objectively it is important to make distinctions between what sins are more or less grave.[/quote]

That I do care about. I've already quoted the Catechism that lists out sins gravely contrary to chastity. I don't feel like doing it again. But the Church doesn't list "more grave" or "less grave" she lists grave. Now I will say make this modification in my stance. There is a degree of difference between spiritual mortal sins and carnal. But I have yet to find anyplace that teaches there is a difference in gravity in carnal mortal sins and the Catechism would certainly reflect it if it did. But feel free to prove me wrong.

There is nothing absurd about you are either chaste or you're not. You cannot say "Oh yeah I'm chaste, except for the porn I watch". Its like stating your pro-life with exceptions for rape and incest. Chastity is chastity

And thanks again for missing the main point

[Socrates]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1598163' date='Jul 11 2008, 04:15 PM']Is newadvent dogma?[/quote]
No, NewAdvent is a website, but as has been pointed out, NewAdvent is merely transcripting in electronic form T[i]he Catholic Encyclopedia[/i], a well-respected and quite orthodox source. (Ecclesiastical approbation. [i]Nihil Obstat[/i]. June 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.) (And that was from back in the days when a "[i]Nihil Obstat[/i]" actually meant something.)
NewAdvent also has online transcriptions of the Douhay-Rheims Bible and the [i]Summa Theologica[/i], which have proven an invaluable online resource for me.

[quote name='rkwright' post='1598297' date='Jul 11 2008, 09:44 PM']Yea, sorry my sarcasm doesn't come through the internet...

I'm surprised people jumping on jamie here, considering he is the only one posting (other than st. col) that actually has a degree in this...

Edit: And Apo...[/quote]
Quite frankly, a theology degree in itself proves nothing. [mod]personal attack - Lil Red[/mod]
The truth is that traditional Catholic theology has always taught through the centuries that 1) different mortal sins have varying degrees of gravity 2) There are different degrees of punishment/suffering in hell 3) unnatural vice is objectively the worst of the sexual sins

We've provided St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and the [i]Catholic Encyclopedia[/i] to back this up.
So far, the only source given for the novel doctrine that all mortal sins are equal and that all suffering in hell is equal is the opinion of hot stuff, who, unlike St. Thomas, is not a Doctor of the Church.

[mod]personal attack[/mod]

One should also note that traditional Catholic teaching lists sodomy, or unnatural vice, among the four [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=29"]Sins that Cry out to Heaven for Vengeance[/url]: Murder, Sodomy, Oppressing Widows and Orphans, and Defrauding Workers of their Wages.

It should be noted that sodomy is the only sexual sin on the list.

The point here is not to deny or downplay the seriousness of other mortal sins, but to point out there is nothing whatsoever contrary to Catholic theology about condemning homosexual sin and the push to "legitimize" such sin as particularly serious offenses against God.
And to attack other Catholics for doing so, and accuse them of bad theology, is plain wrong.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Lil Red

[XIX]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1599194' date='Jul 13 2008, 03:19 PM']I was a bit quick on typing but what I said certainly doesn't even come close to qualifying for heresy. You might be pissed at me (and I'm not sure why) but don't throw words around if you don't know the full implication of those words.[/quote]
I love you too.

I'm not saying you are a heretic, but your Freudian slip was technically against Church teaching and if you can't take a step back and acknowledge that, people aren't going to pay attention to you. To say that you can't get into Purgatory after committing a mortal sin, is false. I knew what you meant, but technically (and I stress technically, as I know what you meant was different from what you said) you did [i]accidentally[/i] infer that mortal sin can never be forgiven. Which is a heretical comment.


And I still agree there is an undue focus on the homosexual brand of sexual sin.

Edited July 14, 2008 by XIX

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1599268' date='Jul 13 2008, 03:24 PM']I don't know. I don't remember everything from all the councils but if its true, great. Honestly I don't really care either way. But actual quotes from the councils would be beneficial since a cursory look at the results of those don't talk about hell at all.[/quote]


"Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. [b]But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.[/b] We also define that the holy apostolic see and the Roman pontiff holds the primacy over the whole world and the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter prince of the apostles, and that he is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians, and to him was committed in blessed Peter the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church, as is contained also in the acts of ecumenical councils and in the sacred canons."

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/Florence.htm#2"]ECCUMENICAL COUNCIL OF FLORENCE[/url]
Session 6, paragraph 11—6th July 1439

[Jaime]

[quote]The point here is not to deny or downplay the seriousness of other mortal sins, but to point out there is nothing whatsoever contrary to Catholic theology about condemning homosexual sin and the push to "legitimize" such sin as particularly serious offenses against God.[/quote]

The brilliant thing about this is that no one has made any attempt to legitimize homosexual acts. So again, while soc won't read this ([mod]personal attack - Lil Red[/mod]) he demonstrates how he adds nothing to the conversation.

[Jaime]

[quote name='XIX' post='1599469' date='Jul 13 2008, 09:13 PM']I love you too.

I'm not saying you are a heretic, but your Freudian slip was technically against Church teaching and if you can't take a step back and acknowledge that, people aren't going to pay attention to you. To say that you can't get into Purgatory after committing a mortal sin, is false. I knew what you meant, but technically (and I stress technically, as I know what you meant was different from what you said) you did [i]accidentally[/i] infer that mortal sin can never be forgiven. Which is a heretical comment.


And I still agree there is an undue focus on the homosexual brand of sexual sin.[/quote]


fair enough

[XIX]

[quote]One should also not that traditional Catholic teaching lists sodomy, or unnatural vice, among the four Sins that Cry out to Heaven for Vengeance: Murder, Sodomy, Oppressing Widows and Orphans, and Defrauding Workers of their Wages.

It should be noted that sodomy is the only sexual sin on the list.[/quote]

I think that's still valid.

Another edit: Is this really justification for focusing on the homosexual brand of unchastity, while ignoring such things as fornication and masturbation? why is this topic not considered a breach of modesty if Alycin's thread was considered by some to be immodest?

Edited July 14, 2008 by XIX

[Socrates]

[quote name='XIX' post='1599487' date='Jul 13 2008, 08:33 PM']I think that's still valid. Aside from the customary ad hominems.[/quote]
No ad hominems there.

[XIX]

Ouch. You're right.


Sorry Soc.

[Socrates]

[quote name='XIX' post='1599487' date='Jul 13 2008, 08:33 PM']I think that's still valid. Aside from the customary ad hominems that I left out of this quote.

Another edit: Is this really justification for focusing on the homosexual brand of unchastity, while ignoring such things as fornication and masturbation? why is this topic not considered a breach of modesty if Alycin's thread was considered by some to be immodest?[/quote]
I don't think anyone's saying that the Church's teachings on sins of fornication and masturbation should be ignored.

The modesty problem with the masturbation thread wasn't that the Church's teaching on this topic was being discussed, but rather the nature of that particular thread.

If a similar poll/thread on sodomy was set up, asking how often people of each sex engaged in sodomy, with people sharing their struggles with the sin and discussing, I would consider that at least as much a breach of modesty!

[rkwright]

Sorry Soc, everything you've brought up has been covered by jamie, but you wouldn't know that...

[rachael]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1599499' date='Jul 13 2008, 09:47 PM']If a similar poll/thread on sodomy was set up, asking how often people of each sex engaged in sodomy, with people sharing their struggles with the sin and discussing, I would consider that at least as much a breach of modesty![/quote]
I, for one, am not afraid of talking of such things. There is both harm in talking of such things freely and of not talking of them at all. Hiding in the dark isn't good for anyone, Soc.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1597420' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:17 PM']hot stuff is on "ignore," as he has been for some time. I'm not afraid of him; I simply do not wish to waste time with his personal attacks.[/quote]

[rkwright]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1598884' date='Jul 12 2008, 07:00 PM'][i]According to the councils of Lyon and Florence formally defined that people in hell are punished by unequal punishments. The conclusion which is drawn from this is that there are levels in hell, which holds the degree of certain of sententia communior. Ludwig Ott in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma discusses it on p. 482. I hope this helps. God bless.

[url="http://www.sensustraditionis.org/"]Fr. Ripperger[/url][/i]
----------------------

Anyone disagree? This would be doctrinal and dogmatic proof would it not?[/quote]

This teaching is regarded as "Common Teaching" by Ott.

"Common Teaching is doctrine, which in itself belongs to the field of free opinions, but which is accepted by theologians generally."

So not quiet dogmatic proof, or that which compels any Catholic to believe.

[Socrates]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1599509' date='Jul 13 2008, 08:56 PM']Sorry Soc, everything you've brought up has been covered by jamie, but you wouldn't know that...[/quote]
So do you disagree with me that the Church has always taught that mortal sins vary in gravity, and that there are corresponding degrees of punishment in hell?
If there's been any refutation of this, feel free to post it.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='rachael' post='1599510' date='Jul 13 2008, 09:00 PM']I, for one, am not afraid of talking of such things. There is both harm in talking of such things freely and of not talking of them at all. Hiding in the dark isn't good for anyone...[/quote]


So, you don't agree with hot stuff that there are too many threads on PM about homosexuality, then?