Homosexuals And Our Attitude Towards Them

[StColette]

[quote name='jmjtina' post='1598171' date='Jul 11 2008, 05:28 PM']totally hijacked.

I agree. [/quote]

Maybe I can ask that cute moderator hubby of mine to move the posts into the new thread lol

[jmjtina]

[quote name='StColette' post='1598173' date='Jul 11 2008, 03:29 PM']Maybe I can ask that cute moderator hubby of mine to move the posts into the new thread lol[/quote]




Good idea little mama of the little ninja!

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='StColette' post='1598168' date='Jul 11 2008, 04:24 PM']The Church does teach differing degrees of punishment in Hell, but I would not equate that to different levels of Hell.

btw we are hijackin this thread. I would suggest making a new one to continue this topic[/quote]


Yes we have, but I'd say one more thing. Since Hell does not exist like a house exist the idea of "levels" can't be thought of with that kind of understanding. Thats it!

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1597644' date='Jul 11 2008, 08:16 AM']FriednofJPII if you want me to teach you about sin, let's start another thread. You are dragging us off topic Because now you are confusing venial and mortal sin. If someone commits a sin, dies and goes to purgatory (and this is key) then they did not meet the criteria of mortal sin. So YES there are different levels of punishment for those in purgatory. But according to Church teaching, people in purgatory did not commit a mortal sin![/quote]

seriously dude, you are digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole. i advise you take a breather and re-study what you "teach" before you cause yourself further embarrassment, not on just this topic, but the thread topic as well.

[HisChildForever]

[quote]A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.[/quote]

I'm a little confused with this. Help?

[Jaime]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1598226' date='Jul 11 2008, 07:01 PM']seriously dude, you are digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole. i advise you take a breather and re-study what you "teach" before you cause yourself further embarrassment, not on just this topic, but the thread topic as well.[/quote]

Johnny exactly what do you perceive is wrong with what I'm"teaching"? Because if you got aproblem with it you got a problem with Church teaching. I've backed up everything I've said.

You've offered nothing but opinion

[XIX]

Jamie, you really haven't. All you have said is that the Church doesn't explicitly state that there are varying degrees of Hell. Well guess what? The Church also hasn't stated that there aren't. They don't say either way. So you really need to get off of you "I'm the only guy offering Church teaching" high horse.

[XIX]

And as 17 others have already mentioned, you can commit a mortal sin and still end up in purgatory, provided you don't die with the mortal sin on your soul.

"But according to Church teaching, people in purgatory did not commit a mortal sin!" ...is a false statement. I'm assuming you just misspoke and were not actually trying to promote heresy, but you have to at least admit your error before you go on about how you're quoting Church teaching and everybody else is just giving opinion.

[rkwright]

[quote name='StColette' post='1598168' date='Jul 11 2008, 04:24 PM']lol no, it's not doctrine either. It's a great source, but not doctrine or dogma of the Church.
The Church does teach differing degrees of punishment in Hell, but I would not equate that to different levels of Hell.

btw we are hijackin this thread. I would suggest making a new one to continue this topic[/quote]


[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1598169' date='Jul 11 2008, 04:25 PM']Actually it's the Catholic Encyclopedia which the quote comes from NewAdvent merely hosts it. But even The Catholic Encyclopedia, would not be doctrine yet it does have very good creditability* and trustworthiness. Its goal is "as its name implies, proposes to give its readers full and authoritative information on the entire cycle of Catholic interests, action and doctrine."

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05528b.htm"]*[/url]
APA citation. Toner, P. (1909). Eschatology. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved July 11, 2008 from New Advent: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05528b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05528b.htm[/url]

MLA citation. Toner, Patrick. "Eschatology." The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 5. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1909. 11 Jul. 2008 <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05528b.htm>.

Transcription. This article was transcribed for New Advent by Michael C. Tinkler.

Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. May 1, 1909. Remy Lafort, Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York.[/quote]

Yea, sorry my sarcasm doesn't come through the internet...

I'm surprised people jumping on jamie here, considering he is the only one posting (other than st. col) that actually has a degree in this...

Edit: And Apo...

Edited July 12, 2008 by rkwright

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1597974' date='Jul 11 2008, 01:49 PM']I've read that as a common misconception about purgatory. Never seen anything from the Church itself saying that there is even such a thing as time in purgatory. All we know is that purification is necessary to enter Heaven, but once we're dead the idea of "time" as we know it now no longer applies.[/quote]

Then why all the many, many church indulgences offered, still considered valid today, as far as I am aware, that remove certain specific amounts of time (usually measured in years, possibly have seen days before) from Purgatory? The Church measured Purgatory stay in terms of time on many, many occasions. Not sure if it's as popular today, but it has happened.

[rkwright]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1598298' date='Jul 11 2008, 09:47 PM']Then why all the many, many church indulgences offered, still considered valid today, as far as I am aware, that remove certain specific amounts of time (usually measured in years, possibly have seen days before) from Purgatory? The Church measured Purgatory stay in terms of time on many, many occasions. Not sure if it's as popular today, but it has happened.[/quote]

While that was once popular, it is no longer used today. Indulgences today are either partial or plenary. Secondly, as I understand it, the time on the indulgence was not the time off purgatory, but the equivalent of time spent fasting and praying here (so a 2 year indulgence would equal 2 years of fasting and praying). Though this was explained to me vy a priest and I'm not sure if the 2nd part is correct.

Edit: From wiki..

[quote]In response to suggestions made at the Second Vatican Council, Pope Paul VI substantially revised the practical application of the traditional doctrine, making it clear that the Church's aim was not merely to help the faithful make due satisfaction for their sins, but chiefly to bring them to greater fervour of charity; it was for this purpose that he decreed that partial indulgences simply supplement, and to the same degree, the remission that the person performing the indulgenced action has already gained by the charity and contrition with which he does it.[3] Previously, partial indulgences were granted as the equivalent of a certain number of days, months, "quarantines"[12] (Lent-like forty-day periods) or years of canonical penance. Those who did not understand these terms sometimes misinterpreted them as meaning a reduction of that length of stay in Purgatory.

The abolition of this classification by years and days made it clearer than before that repentance and faith are required not only for remission of eternal punishment for mortal sin but also for remission of temporal punishment for sin. Pope Paul VI wrote: "Indulgences cannot be gained without a sincere conversion of outlook and unity with God".[13][/quote]

Edited July 12, 2008 by rkwright

[Aloysius]

indulgences measured in time refer to th equivalent amount of time you would have spent in penance in the early Church when penances were much more severe. I have been told by various priests that if, under the direction of a confessor, you wish to continue measuring your partial indulgences in that way and properly understand it, there's no problem. I personally like to do this because it gives me a more concrete understanding of the indulgences which I attempt to recieve.

I would speculate that because purgatory causes change from one thing to another, then some type of time must be needed, though time may operate differently in purgatory than on earth. while progression can occur in eternity and outside time, ie the Eastern concept of heaven as eternally spiralling into the eternal mystery of the Beatific vision, true change (ie from something bad to something good) can only occur with the passage of time. time may occur differently in purgatory, but there must be time because change requires time by definition, and there definitely is change.

when it comes to 'levels of hell'... I see no difference between levels of hell and differing degrees of punishment, that's what I mean by 'levels of hell'-- differing degrees of actual punishment.

if you tell me God will punish someone in hell who committed genocide the same as someone who committed singular murder if both people are equally culpable for their respective punishments, I will tell you that you are proposing an unjust God. if you want to convince me that this is indeed just and not unjust, you will have to prove it to me from Church teaching, something you have not done. I do not propose to prove what I say from Church teaching, I don't feel I need to... except to say that the Church teaches that God is the perfect definition of justice.

[Apotheoun]

An interesting article:

[url="http://www.uky.edu/~dbradsh/papers/Christian%20Approach%20to%20Phil%20of%20Time.pdf"][u]A Christian Approach to the Philosophy of Time[/u][/url]

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1598297' date='Jul 11 2008, 08:44 PM']I'm surprised people jumping on jamie here, considering he is the only one posting (other than st. col) that actually has a degree in this...

Edit: And Apo...[/quote]

i didn't know that and i respect that, but it doesn't necessarily justify his claims. it also doesn't justify his poor attitude and lack of charity.

given his credibility, i'd still be surprised if anyone retracts their statements because of it. he may know what he's talking about *in his mind*, but it may be that his wording is not in agreement with what the rest of us are talking about. which is why i advised he take a breather, maybe re-read the thread to see where the conflict is coming from our perspective and salvage what's left. i think that's what a teacher might do if he is in conflict with his entire class.. (back down his ego for a second and consider why his *teaching* is backfiring.)

given what's happened, i guess i should approach every discussion as if everyone has a degree, just as we should receive everyone as if they were Jesus..

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='XIX' post='1598286' date='Jul 11 2008, 07:47 PM']Jamie, you really haven't. All you have said is that the Church doesn't explicitly state that there are varying degrees of Hell. Well guess what? The Church also hasn't stated that there aren't. They don't say either way. So you really need to get off of you "I'm the only guy offering Church teaching" high horse.[/quote]

for some reason that reminds me of liturgical abuse, where just because it's not written, doesn't mean we can do it. don't know how to apply that here..