Socialism

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

Sorry, I know there is a thread on this already, but it is very convoluted as it pertains to a conversation in another thread. It was hard for me to follow. I think a new topic will serve us better.



So why is Socialism Condemned (why did Pius IX Condemn it)?

Is it intrinsically evil? why?

[Nihil Obstat]

The best I understand it it's a few things.
a) advocating a radical seperation of church and state, to the point even of state worship or state enforced atheism
b) degrading of human dignity by stripping away the chance to legitimate ambition and destroying the gains of hard work
c) continued support for social policies like abortion, same sex marriage
d) desire to strip away free will of the individual, destroy individuality, and attain a single-thinking community unit.

Although I might have missed stuff.

[Aloysius]

Socialism is, by definition, systematic disobedience to the 7th commandment. it is the theft of property by the government. Even Robin Hood, who had the best intentions in the world and a just reason for his overall cause, would have had to confess his theft.

In addition, socialist movements are, by nature, breaking the 10th commandment through class warfare. Rerum Novarum explains it pretty well that the classes ought not to be abolished but brought closer together.

[Spamity Calamity]

The support of socialism defies both reason and history.


My favorite catchphrase about that terrible system of government:

"Socialism: A century of failure proves nothing."

lol

[Didymus]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1583472' date='Jun 26 2008, 12:27 AM']The best I understand it it's a few things.
a) advocating a radical seperation of church and state, to the point even of state worship or state enforced atheism
b) degrading of human dignity by stripping away the chance to legitimate ambition and destroying the gains of hard work
c) continued support for social policies like abortion, same sex marriage
d) desire to strip away free will of the individual, destroy individuality, and attain a single-thinking community unit.

Although I might have missed stuff. [/quote]

abortion has nothing to do with the ideology of socialism. You're confusing socialism with Socialist Parties - the difference being a party will lay out a broad platform to gain support from different groups, centering it around the ideology. Abortion [i]could[/i] be a stance in any of the political parties today, meaning it could be defended from any political, economical, social point of view.

the same kinda goes with religion. One could theoretically have a socialist state while retaining the freedom to worship as one pleases, and this can be done through a separation of Church and state, if done the right way.



The main moral problem with Socialism (as Aloysius had kindly pointed out to me when we had this discussion a little while ago) is the abolition of private property, which is an affront to the rights and dignity of the human person.

Also, a welfare state can often run contrary to the teachings of the Church if it promotes the lifestyle of some who may want to live off the govt assistance and never get themselves 'on their feet.'

[Galloglasses]

My main beef with socialism is that it almost, always acts like a stepping stone. Look at Europe, Conservative in the early 20th century, slowly became socialist and, well, just look a Europe now, trying to create a one Europe superstate with that Lisbon Nonsense.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1584075' date='Jun 26 2008, 05:07 PM']abortion has nothing to do with the ideology of socialism. You're confusing socialism with Socialist Parties - the difference being a party will lay out a broad platform to gain support from different groups, centering it around the ideology. Abortion [i]could[/i] be a stance in any of the political parties today, meaning it could be defended from any political, economical, social point of view.

the same kinda goes with religion. One could theoretically have a socialist state while retaining the freedom to worship as one pleases, and this can be done through a separation of Church and state, if done the right way.
The main moral problem with Socialism (as Aloysius had kindly pointed out to me when we had this discussion a little while ago) is the abolition of private property, which is an affront to the rights and dignity of the human person.

Also, a welfare state can often run contrary to the teachings of the Church if it promotes the lifestyle of some who may want to live off the govt assistance and never get themselves 'on their feet.'[/quote]
I know that in theory it's not part of socialism... but it's what almost invariably becomes one of their main ideas. I was trying to go over all the different reasons we oppose socialist parties in general. Should have been more clear.
Yea, private property is the main thing, but isn't it actually a part of socialist ideology to entirely separate Church and state?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1584060' date='Jun 26 2008, 06:36 PM']Socialism is, by definition, systematic disobedience to the 7th commandment. it is the theft of property by the government. Even Robin Hood, who had the best intentions in the world and a just reason for his overall cause, would have had to confess his theft.[/quote]


couldn't you make the same argument in regard to taxes?

[Aloysius]

I can and do... but not all taxes. The government has the right to a certain payment for the right to use the public arena that it provides safety/stability for: ie through sales. I see taxes on sales as good and acceptable to fund the necessary parts of government. Taxes on property are indeed socialist and immoral. Income taxes likewise are an immoral theft of what properly belongs to the person who earned that income; however, it is possible to argue that it is a fee for the stability offered to be able to work... I disagree, I see it as skimming off of the payment rightfully due to the person who earned it. The only tax I see as legitimate is a tax on the sale of non-necessities.

Income tax is against the spirit of the American Constitution itself (they had to ammend it to even establish the darn thing) but is also against, in my opinion, a right idea about what government is entitled to do. I said all this in the fairtax thread on the election board.

In any event, when taxes are overbearing, they are a much more minor version of socialist theft. unjust taxation can steal some of your property, socialism steals your very right to have any property at all.

I'm a distributivist... which is often mistaken for socialism because it's radical and not mainstream capitalist... I'll reference this because of Didymus's cool avatar and the fact that galloglasses is on here... Sinn Fein of the 50's was actually highly influenced by distributivism and Catholic social justice as described in encyclicals like Rerum Novarum... but sadly has succumbed to radical Marxism since the sixties. Anyway, distributivism wants instead of taking away everyone's right to property to have the property more evenly distributed but fully and completely owned and earned by the people (the only model I know of would be what was done with British landlords in the creation of the Irish Free State--they were bought out and it was sold to the people who actually worked the land... the idea would be to do that with lands and businesses--buy them out and sell them to those who actually work them); instead of abolishing classes (which justly exist in society), it simply brings the classes closer together. "the problem with capitalism is not too many capitalists, but too few" -GK Chesterton

[Didymus]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1584502' date='Jun 27 2008, 12:55 AM']Yea, private property is the main thing, but isn't it actually a part of socialist ideology to entirely separate Church and state?[/quote]

Yes. At least I would agree here, insofar as religion is seen as a product and tool of the bourgeoisie, in order to 'opiate the masses.'

[Aloysius]

while that is true, I like to try to boil it down to its most basic formula, as there are those who propose things like a "christian socialism"... the best criticism of socialism is that the denial of private property is theft and against the 7th commandment and the class warfare concept utilizes covetousness and is against the 9th commandment. those are the two basic things to argue against, everything else should be brought up against marxism, but not necessarily just socialism in general.

[Didymus]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1586966' date='Jun 30 2008, 08:00 AM']those are the two basic things to argue against, everything else should be brought up against marxism, but not necessarily just socialism in general.[/quote]

good point...

[Nihil Obstat]

So then, on the other end of the scale, what forms of more right wing 'Christian capitalism' would be acceptable?