StColette Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Lucy Lionheart' post='1582848' date='Jun 25 2008, 11:26 AM']you mite not want to dwell on it but other people want to know im guess the church lets some people be mean and say that babies who die befor baptisism are not in heaven the church dosn't really say enything so mean people can say what they want and not be told they are wrong[/quote] The Church doesn't "let" people speak false things or be mean. People allow themselves to speak false things and to be mean. The Church is very clear on the sanctity of life and very clear on the standpoint of unbaptized children. Sadly many Catholics as well as other Christians are not very informed about their faith and what their faith truthfully teaches. Again, the Church says a lot on this matter, but the Church can't be present at every single conversation that takes place on this planet. It is up to the person to be well informed of what the Church teaches before they start speaking false things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Well, seeing as the CHURCH is made up of human beings, who are sinners and seeing as they do not place speech monitors on us to make sure we are all saying exactly the same thing, some people will say things that are not true. They are ignorant. There are people who are not Catholic that will say terrible things about the Church. What a Catholic should be doing is finding out what the truth is and then letting people know that when it comes up. Just because someone says something mean or wrong, doesn't mean you have to let it affect you. Christ was persecuted and he said that his followers would also be persecuted. Comes with the faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rckllnknny Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Deb' post='1582836' date='Jun 25 2008, 11:15 AM']The Catholic Church does not say that babies who die prior to baptism do not go to heaven.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy Lionheart Posted June 25, 2008 Author Share Posted June 25, 2008 they say it in the baltimore chaechism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 We don't use the baltimore Catechism. Maybe you should read the New Catechism to see what is taught. Throw the baltimore away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy Lionheart Posted June 25, 2008 Author Share Posted June 25, 2008 but why was it ok then and not ok now i though the church don't change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Lucy Lionheart' post='1582870' date='Jun 25 2008, 11:45 AM']but why was it ok then and not ok now i though the church don't change[/quote] The church may never have issued a firm statement on that through the Holy See. Things can be brought up if there is dissension or the are not clear and then the church, with the help of the Holy Spirit, can issue a clarifying statement on it. I personally have not researched when this change was put out, by whom, or what the circumstances were. You could ask a priest or you could research it yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Lucy Lionheart' post='1582857' date='Jun 25 2008, 12:34 PM']they say it in the baltimore chaechism[/quote] Here is what I found in the Baltimore Catechism: [quote]321. How can those be saved who through no fault of their own have not received the sacrament of Baptism? Those who through no fault of their own have not received the sacrament of Baptism can be saved through what is called baptism of blood or baptism of desire.[/quote] It doesn't directly address the question of infants who die without being baptized, but the simple answer is there is no answer. The current Catechism from the Holy See talks more about unbaptized infants, but it doesn't have a concrete answer because this isn't something God revealed through Scripture or Tradition. What we do know is God is perfect in his mercy and justice. We also know God gives everyone the graces to be in Heaven. Since an infant or young child would not be capable of rejecting this grace, it's safe to say they go to Heaven. But, there is no dogma stating that is definitely true. We just have to leave it up to God and trust Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Just let yourself trust in God's infinite mercy. Deus Caritas Est, God Is Love. Don't let yourself think that God enjoys rejecting babies just because due to tragic circumstances they were never formally admitted into the Church. God never rejects His creation, and babies are not baptized "through no fault of their own". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Deb' post='1582798' date='Jun 25 2008, 09:35 AM']It means we believe that God will accept babies into heaven that die before birth or die before baptism. It also means that those who are in classes to become baptized and confirmed or who fight for Christ, even though not baptized, will go to heaven. If of course they aren't super evil sinners.[/quote] [quote name='Deb' post='1582836' date='Jun 25 2008, 10:15 AM']The Catholic Church does not say that babies who die prior to baptism do not go to heaven.[/quote] Just to be clear, the Church does not say that those babies do not go to heaven, but the Church does not say they do go to heaven either. It would be wrong to read too much into the quote from the CCC; it says those who die unbaptized we trust into the mercy of God. That does not mean we know if in a particular case, or generally, if those souls go to heaven or not. To say unbaptized babies get a free ticket is to deny original sin. Original sin is real; it damns us to hell from the start, and it is the right and just punishment from the fall. To assume that unbaptized babies automatically receive baptisms by desire is a speculation I am not willing to make, and as far as I know the Church does not make either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='rkwright' post='1583062' date='Jun 25 2008, 02:06 PM']Just to be clear, the Church does not say that those babies do not go to heaven, but the Church does not say they do go to heaven either. It would be wrong to read too much into the quote from the CCC; it says those who die unbaptized we trust into the mercy of God. That does not mean we know if in a particular case, or generally, if those souls go to heaven or not. To say unbaptized babies get a free ticket is to deny original sin. Original sin is real; it damns us to hell from the start, and it is the right and just punishment from the fall. To assume that unbaptized babies automatically receive baptisms by desire is a speculation I am not willing to make, and as far as I know the Church does not make either.[/quote] Well they obviously speculate somewhat. That's what it looks like in the Catechism. I guess the truth is that we don't know, but we trust in God's [b] infinite mercy[/b] Sounds like a good bet to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 It is an open theological question on whether or not unbaptised prenatals and infants go to Heaven. Theologians in the past have been neglectful in developing this idea, but the senses of the faithful clearly seems to support the idea that yes indeed they do go to Heaven. The theologian Rahner proposed his "Anonymous Christian" idea. A recent theologian Conte proposed his speculative theology on what he terms "Mystical Baptism." Personally, I am certain that they do. Various passages of Sacred Scripture seem to assert that yes as an act of Mercy (and also Justice for God is One) they do recieve the gift of eternal life. The only problem would be that their Faith and spiritual life would need to mature. Therefore they may go to a fringe of Purgatory in order to be prepared by God's grace to enter Heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 And Lucy you seem sincere, so feel free to ask me questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy Lionheart Posted June 25, 2008 Author Share Posted June 25, 2008 i hope i seem sincere cause i am i just want to know things for sure and rkwright sounds alot more like who i heard before and what I thought ws true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Lucy Lionheart' post='1583086' date='Jun 25 2008, 03:58 PM']i hope i seem sincere cause i am[/quote] good to know. Edited June 25, 2008 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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