Natural Family Planning Discussion

[kujo]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1582247' date='Jun 24 2008, 10:52 PM']Ok, so then by that logic, is it not perfectly ok to use condoms as long as you do it when life is not avaliable?[/quote]

No.

Simply no. That's not logical. Condoms are never permissible. Plain and simple.

[havok579257]

[quote name='kujo' post='1582249' date='Jun 24 2008, 09:53 PM']Firstly, I don't know where that paragraph you offered as an example of the use of the word "contraceptive" came from.

Secondly, these questions have been answered by myself and by a handful of others more than a couple of times now. If you do not understand our explanation, perhaps you should seek the counsel of your pastor or the NFP liason in your diocese. Maybe you need to pray for God to soften your heart and clear your mind of the confusion you feel. The devil doesn't want us to believe and practice this stuff so he clouds our head with questions and apparent contradictions. I'll pray for you and your discernment.[/quote]


Well if I don;t practice NFP, then that is ok too. This ain't a huge deal to me either way since we as Catholics are not forced to use it, it is just an option.

[rkwright]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1582247' date='Jun 24 2008, 08:52 PM']Ok, so then by that logic, is it not perfectly ok to use condoms as long as you do it when life is not avaliable?[/quote]

No because there is always sin in having sex but in the same act preventing life from being transmitted. When a couple has sex during an infertile period, the couple is doing nothing wrong. They are having sex; God has prevented life so there is no sin there. When a couple has sex and prevents life from being transmitted, they are "playing God" and thus sinning.

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1582247' date='Jun 24 2008, 08:52 PM']Ok, so then by that logic, is it not perfectly ok to use condoms as long as you do it when life is not avaliable?[/quote]

Why would you do that anyway? There is no way to be 100% certain that having sex on a certain day won't produce life (cycle variations, other random variables), so a condom could inadvertantly prevent life on a day that actually could have produced life. NFP isn't 100% effective for that reason.

Edited June 25, 2008 by lilac_angel

[havok579257]

[quote name='kujo' post='1582252' date='Jun 24 2008, 09:54 PM']No.

Simply no. That's not logical. Condoms are never permissible. Plain and simple.[/quote]


Why? The poster above said the point of NFP was to have sex when having a child is not possible. Would it not be the same as to only use condoms when life is not avaliable.

To me it sounds like everyone is saying contraception is ok, just certain methods are ok and the rest are not ok. Is this what everyone is saying.

[HisChildForever]

[quote]A contraceptive is something unnatural while NFP uses the biological processes bestowed by God in order to plan the size of your family.[/quote]

[quote]NFP is working entirely within nature, within the woman's cycle[/quote]

[quote]and is a way to POSTPONE, not avoid entirely, pregnancy. A husband and wife make a sacrifice and do not have sex during fertile time periods. This is the biggest difference. People who use art. cont. don't make that sacrifice.[/quote]

I like this, the wording used makes it more understandable.

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1582262' date='Jun 24 2008, 08:58 PM']Why? The poster above said the point of NFP was to have sex when having a child is not possible. Would it not be the same as to only use condoms when life is not avaliable.

To me it sounds like everyone is saying contraception is ok, just certain methods are ok and the rest are not ok. Is this what everyone is saying.[/quote]

See my post right above that one. Using condoms when life is apparently - to the best of the couple's knowledge - not available is like saying we'll do it the natural way but JUST IN CASE that fails, we're using artificial contaception as well. Doesn't make sense.

Edited June 25, 2008 by lilac_angel

[rkwright]

There was another thread I posted in about these similar thoughts.

In order to show this full circle, I believe (though I am willing to be corrected) it would be acceptable to use contraception and not have sex. ie women on the pill for other reasons, but not be sexually active.

Again the sin comes in when one has sex and in the same act prevents life from being transmitted. Its like trying to have your cake and eat it too. If you're going to have sex you have to be open to life and cannot prevent it from being a possibility; if God prevents it thats another story. If you're not ready for life, then don't have sex.

[havok579257]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1582250' date='Jun 24 2008, 09:53 PM']The intent is not the only factor involved.

Consider this analogy (Chris West's). Grandma in the hospital is in pain and dying. You honestly want her to die; she has lived a full and holy life and now is in pain and is not going to get better. You can (a) let her die naturally or (b) euthanize her.

The intent is the same, yet there is something gravely wrong with the second choice.[/quote]


That analogy is not even the same. In one instance your killing her, in the other you not doing anything. Your letting things happen and not intervening at all.

With NFP you are activily doing something.

[rkwright]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1582269' date='Jun 24 2008, 09:00 PM']That analogy is not even the same. In one instance your killing her, in the other you not doing anything. Your letting things happen and not intervening at all.

With NFP you are activily doing something.[/quote]

In NFP "your letting things happen and not intervening at all" to use your words.

In contraception "your letting things happen and" intervening.

For a NFP couple every sexual act is 'letting things happen' and not doing anything. Every sexual act is open to life; thats the point.

For a contraception couple, NO sexual act is open to life.

[Alycin]

Havoc, you are either selectively reading, or not reading whole posts at all, because your questions have been answered time and time again.

No one is forcing you to use NFP, so if it doesn't sit well with you, don't use it. However, don't use ANY form of contraceptive, natural or unnatural, if that is how you feel about.

"Don't be stricter than the Church."

[kujo]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1582269' date='Jun 24 2008, 11:00 PM']That analogy is not even the same. In one instance your killing her, in the other you not doing anything. Your letting things happen and not intervening at all.

With NFP you are activily doing something.[/quote]

Following NFP allows your bodies to take their natural processes. The analogy is EXCELLENT.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1582279' date='Jun 24 2008, 10:05 PM']Havoc, you are either selectively reading, or not reading whole posts at all, because your questions have been answered time and time again.

No one is forcing you to use NFP, so if it doesn't sit well with you, don't use it. However, don't use ANY form of contraceptive, natural or unnatural, if that is how you feel about.

"Don't be stricter than the Church."[/quote]


As I said above, thank you for helping me to better understand the churches stance on nfp and other contraceptives. It took me a while, but I finally got what you guys/gals were saying.

Although i don;t completly understand it all, i do understand it better than before.

Edited June 25, 2008 by havok579257

[Alycin]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1582289' date='Jun 24 2008, 10:09 PM']I think havoc is genuinely looking for answers on these topics. I think to dismiss them and say your questions have been adequately answered is probably not a good response. Obviously they haven't been if he still has questions... If you guys (no one in particular) just want to skip over the posts thats fine, but I don't think its appropriate to dismiss someone.

Nothing wrong with explaining the faith to the 10th degree...

Just my opinion though...[/quote]


I don't think so either, but when someone asks questions that have already been answered three or four times, you start to wonder if they are having time to read the posts or if they are skipping over some to "keep up" with the thread.

Sometimes it can appear that one is just arguing for the sake of arguing. If that is not the case, then I apologize.

It's good that this thread has helped you, Havoc. Think about taking a class with your spouse on NFP.

Edited June 25, 2008 by Alycin

[prose]

From "contraception, why not?" (boldness added by me) (http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0002.html)

[quote]Pope John Paul II says that Natural Family Planning brings about, what he calls, the virtue of self mastery which is the same as the virtue of chastity. He says it actually makes people better lovers because now they're making love to the person they love rather than to some fantasy. Instead of satisfying some sexual urge, they can control those sexual urges and now they're acting, again, upon a love impulse and not a sex impulse. Chastity education should help young people learn that they are virtually assaulted by their culture. They also need to learn about original sin, that all of us have disordered appetites in almost every aspect of our lives. We want to eat more, sleep more, drink more, and have more sex than is good for us in ways, with people, etc., that aren't good. And that's a result of our fallen nature. We can expect this, so we shouldn't be startled and astonished and upset that these things are happening to us. It's part of the course of things. But we have to learn to re-order ourselves. And, I say to young people, “Yes this sexual disorderedness is going to happen to you. A lot of it's not your fault. It's the fault of your culture. The other problem is you're a human being. But you have to work at chastity and the rewards are great.”[/quote]

[quote]Couples who've abstained before marriage, have little or no problem with Natural Family Planning. Little or no problem. In fact, they think that abstinence is a way of expressing love. It's not this huge deprivation. The reason that they abstained before marriage was not because they weren't attracted to each other, not because the hormones weren't raging, but because they loved each other. They said, “I'm not going to have sex with you before marriage because I love you. I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to have a stronger commitment than I've made here. I don't want to put us in danger of having a baby when we haven't really prepared for that baby. Marriage is preparation for those bonds and marriage is preparation for that baby. And I love you and I can wait. That's how much I love you.” Within marriage, abstinence has that same aspect. “It's not a good idea for us to have a child right now. We can abstain. We did it before. We know how to show our affection at this time. We know how to be loving to each other at this time because we've done it before.” And they can do it.

Women who use Natural Family Planning have an amazing sense of self-respect and well-being. They think that their fertility is revered by their husbands and they think that they've got themselves particularly good husbands. “I've got my husband who's particularly good. He's a wonderful man. He's got high moral standards. He doesn't treat me like a sex object. I can trust him. He likes me even when we're not having sex together. He's a great guy. I got myself a good one.” And males have a great reverence for their wives, for their fertility. They don't want to damage her body. The don't want her to take all these pills and use these devices. They say, “No. I love her. I wouldn't put her through those risks. And this willingness to have a baby for me, that's a wonderful thing. What a woman puts herself through! And I am going to respect that.” So, there is this deep bond between the two of them.

[b]And NFP doesn't say no to God. You see, NFP respects a woman's fertility, has no bad social consequences (in fact wonderful ones — there's almost a non-existent divorce rate among couples using Natural Family Planning) and NFP doesn't say no to God because God has said, “I want to be there at the fertile time. I made the fertile time for bringing forth new human life. If you engage in the sexual act, I want My option of making new human life. But I gave you a half of a month, three quarters of a month, where you're infertile and if you want to pursue the bonding power of the sexual act without babies, do it then. I'm asleep. I'm out of town. I don't expect to be invited at that time. I'm not around. You can't even make Me come. I won't come. I can't. I made your body in a certain way.” There's no saying no to God. NFP couples respect the fertile period as if they're on sacred ground. You don't walk there unless you're prepared for the consequences.[/b]

People say Natural Family Planning is like dieting. We have this phenomenon now of bulimia. People eat and they throw up. That's a bit like contraception. You want the pleasure but you don't want the consequences. You engage in the act and you violate the act. Whereas Natural Family Planning is a lot like dieting but a lot better. When you diet, you can't eat the chocolate cake; you have carrots and celery. Sex during the infertile time apparently is a lot better than carrots and celery. The options are better. There's a pinch in it. It's difficult, but it's not impossible and it does great things for marriage.

Couples will tell you, they've always told me this, you read this in all the NFP literature: Those who use Natural Family Planning communicate better with each other. I've always wondered what that meant. Does it mean that people are either having sex or talking, but not both and because they're not having sex during the fertile time does that mean they're talking more? But there's something to that. I read somewhere that couples, I'm not married and, of course, I'm envious in many respects of marriage, especially for companionship, but you read something like people say there's twenty-seven minutes a week on the average that couples talk to each other. And I say, “Gosh, if that's all it is, it's not worth it.” Twenty-seven minutes!

But, anyway, these Natural Family Planning couples must use that twenty-seven minutes well. I've figured this out, what they're talking about. It goes something like this. They have this conversation once a month maybe twelve times a year. And it happens on that weekend when the mother-in-law takes the children or you have a nice little business trip and you're looking forward to this nice weekend together. A little quiet lunch, maybe some shopping, a movie, a romantic dinner, and a nice evening of relaxed lovemaking with no children, no stress, just a nice night. And the woman gets up in the morning and says, “Darling, I'm afraid I've entered the fertile phase.” So, there's this deflation, this disappointment. The weekend is not going to be everything they thought it would be.[/quote]