HisChildForever Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='prose' post='1582090' date='Jun 24 2008, 07:50 PM']The simplest answer is that if the Church teaches that it is a legitimate way to space or postpone pregnancies, than it is okay to use to space or postpone pregnancies. Obviously, one should not be spacing or postponing pregnancies without serious reason, but that is up to the couple to discern, not anyone else.[/quote] So basically, you're saying that every single time a Catholic couple has sex, it's expected of them to have a child unless they have a "serious reason" not to conceive. Therefore, it only makes sense that if a couple can not bring a child into the world at a certain time - for instance, they are having financial difficulties - they should just abstain from sex altogether, thus there's no point to NFP, because abstinence, like NFP, is practiced in marriage to avoid conception. The issue was already raised, but I want to repeat it - then isn't abstinence a sort of contraception, if you deliberately avoid sex on the days when the woman is most fertile to avoid pregnancy? I'm honestly not convinced about the whole "NFP is different from contraception" thing. You [i]are[/i] using something man made - no, not condoms, but pencils and calenders to keep track of the "safest" time to have sex in order to [b]avoid[/b] conception. The first definition of "contraception" that comes up on dictionary.com is..."the deliberate prevention of conception or impregnation by any of various drugs, techniques, or devices; birth control." Isn't NFP a technique? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 One form of contraception is artificial, the other is natural and you are working within the bounds of the way that God created you. Do you think it is a coincidence that women cycle? God created us to not be fertile all the time, only part of the time. [quote name='XIX' post='1582095' date='Jun 24 2008, 07:51 PM']They aren't holding back when they are actually making love. That's the point. [size=5]The intent here is to cooperate with what God has given you to avoid a pregnancy.[/size] The point of using the pill and condoms is not to avoid creating life, as abstinence is better at accomplishing this goal. It is to have sex and do whatever you want whenever you feel like it. The intent is to create your own method that disregards the way God has made us. [/quote] BUT, that being said, though the church does allow NFP, there is a body of people within the Catholic church that do not agree with the church's teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote]One form of contraception is artificial, the other is natural and you are working within the bounds of the way that God created you.[/quote] Agreed on that, however - does the end really justify the means? The end of both is the same: avoiding pregnancy. Sometimes - and I am not trying to offend here, I promise - I do think that the Church just threw NFP into the mix to keep people happy, and has made it "work" by promoting how natural it is, but we are overlooking that just like the point of contraception, the point of NFP is to avoid/prevent pregnancy while still enjoying the physical pleasure (and emotional closeness) of sex. NFP is like...a loophole. I think that's what I've been trying to drive at. Btw, that quote is so true, thanks for sharing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Alycin' post='1582154' date='Jun 24 2008, 08:26 PM']One form of contraception is artificial, the other is natural and you are working within the bounds of the way that God created you. Do you think it is a coincidence that women cycle? God created us to not be fertile all the time, only part of the time. BUT, that being said, though the church does allow NFP, there is a body of people within the Catholic church that do not agree with the church's teaching.[/quote] Here's the thing, committing mortal sins, one of the criteria is did you intend to do something that is against God's law? It doesn't say how you do something. It states what was your intent. NFP's intent is to try and avoid pregnancy. That's the entire point of it. Which is the same intent of birth control. Mortal sin compared to vienal sin is all about intent and undertsanding. Its mortal if you intend to do something against God's will, which according to Catholic teaching is what NFP is doing. Just like the poster above said, I think this was thrown in to keep people happy. I mean if it has always been in teaching with God's law, why has it only be implimented lately and not since the beggining of the Catholic church? Up until recently it was all about producing life. NOw its about producing life only if you really want to, but it can be avoided if that's what you choose. The intent is the same is the pill. Its not man made, but other than that the goal of both is to avoid having babies. Edited June 25, 2008 by havok579257 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) [quote name='havok579257' post='1582182' date='Jun 24 2008, 08:45 PM']Here's the thing, committing mortal sins, one of the criteria is did you intend to do something that is against God's law? It doesn't say how you do something. It states what was your intent.[/quote] WHOA. BIG problem here. It is not a magic trick. Intent can lessen or increase culpability for a sin, but it does not... POOF!... magically make something a sin or not. Oh and "according to Catholic teaching" NFP is okay. Edited June 25, 2008 by Alycin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1582189' date='Jun 24 2008, 08:53 PM']WHOA. BIG problem here. It is not a magic trick. Intent can lessen or increase culpability for a sin, but it does not... POOF!... magically make something a sin or not. Oh and "according to Catholic teaching" NFP is okay.[/quote] If you know God's law and choose to do the oppposite how does that not make it a mortal sin? NFP is a catholic teaching your right, but to me it doesn''t make sense. Cause its a contraceptive. Which the church opposes. Can you answer me why avoiding pregnancy one way is ok, but not another way? Its like saying condoms are ok, but the pill is not. The church teaches us the three purposes for sexal intercourse in a marriage: Produce life Glorify God Unnitive with your spouse How is NFP not avoiding the first one? YOur sole purpose and intent is to avoid producing life. Sure you open to the possobility to it if it happens, but then the same can be said about condoms. Cause they are not 100% effective, so you are open to the idea or creating life, although that is what you are trying to avoid. Or how is pulling out any different? You are open to the idea that pregnancy could happen, but you are trying to avoid it. By definition, NFP is a contraceptive and the church says its ok, yet they say contraceptives are wrong. How does this not sound like a contradiction by the church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1582203' date='Jun 24 2008, 10:09 PM']If you know God's law and choose to do the oppposite how does that not make it a mortal sin? NFP is a catholic teaching your right, but to me it doesn''t make sense. Cause its a contraceptive. Which the church opposes. Can you answer me why avoiding pregnancy one way is ok, but not another way? Its like saying condoms are ok, but the pill is not. The church teaches us the three purposes for sexal intercourse in a marriage: Produce life Glorify God Unnitive with your spouse How is NFP not avoiding the first one? YOur sole purpose and intent is to avoid producing life. Sure you open to the possobility to it if it happens, but then the same can be said about condoms. Cause they are not 100% effective, so you are open to the idea or creating life, although that is what you are trying to avoid. Or how is pulling out any different? You are open to the idea that pregnancy could happen, but you are trying to avoid it. By definition, NFP is a contraceptive and the church says its ok, yet they say contraceptives are wrong. How does this not sound like a contradiction by the church?[/quote] The difference between NFP and contraceptives is that contraceptives enter an unnatural element into the marital embrace with the intention of counter-acting the natural means that God has given us to space out pregnancies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1582203' date='Jun 24 2008, 09:09 PM']If you know God's law and choose to do the oppposite how does that not make it a mortal sin? NFP is a catholic teaching your right, but to me it doesn''t make sense. Cause its a contraceptive. Which the church opposes. Can you answer me why avoiding pregnancy one way is ok, but not another way? Its like saying condoms are ok, but the pill is not. The church teaches us the three purposes for sexal intercourse in a marriage: Produce life Glorify God Unnitive with your spouse How is NFP not avoiding the first one? YOur sole purpose and intent is to avoid producing life. Sure you open to the possobility to it if it happens, but then the same can be said about condoms. Cause they are not 100% effective, so you are open to the idea or creating life, although that is what you are trying to avoid. Or how is pulling out any different? You are open to the idea that pregnancy could happen, but you are trying to avoid it. By definition, NFP is a contraceptive and the church says its ok, yet they say contraceptives are wrong. How does this not sound like a contradiction by the church?[/quote] I completely agree. Just because you can't physically hold NFP in your hand like a condom, doesn't mean it's not contraception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1582209' date='Jun 24 2008, 10:14 PM']I completely agree. Just because you can't physically hold NFP in your hand like a condom, doesn't mean it's not contraception.[/quote] A contraceptive is something unnatural while NFP uses the biological processes bestowed by God in order to plan the size of your family. Of course, if God wants you to have a kid, you're having a kid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='kujo' post='1582208' date='Jun 24 2008, 09:13 PM']The difference between NFP and contraceptives is that contraceptives enter an unnatural element into the marital embrace with the intention of counter-acting the natural means that God has given us to space out pregnancies.[/quote] But that's what NFP is doing also. You are trying to counter-act God's will by having sex only on certain days. If your not counter-acting God's will, then you should be having sex whenever you and your spouse feel like it. Not on specific days with the sole intent of counter-acting God's will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1582203' date='Jun 24 2008, 09:09 PM']dsfsadfasd[/quote] As I have already said, and many others have said, the church rejects artificial contraception. There is a difference. So if you look at it that way your whole argument kind of crumbles. It also says that NFP can only be used in grave matter. But to humor you: The pill is very, very different from NFP. In fact, there are so many ways that I won't list them ALL here. But worth being noted, is the fact that once you have been on the pill, and you get off it, it is likely to take several months for your body to readjust and for you to be able to conceive again. That isn't always the case, but it is common. There are some forms of art. cont. that actually make you infertile for years at a time. Compare this with NFP. NFP is working entirely within nature, within the woman's cycle (that God created...he could have made woman perpetually fertile, He did not. Wonder why?) and is a way to POSTPONE, not avoid entirely, pregnancy. A husband and wife make a sacrifice and do not have sex during fertile time periods. This is the biggest difference. People who use art. cont. don't make that sacrifice. If we really want to use the kind of argument you are suggesting, we could say that a husband and wife who merely kiss and cuddle one night for unity are not open to life because they chose not to have sex. It doesn't make sense. Lines have to be drawn, and the church has drawn them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='kujo' post='1582208' date='Jun 24 2008, 08:13 PM']The difference between NFP and contraceptives is that contraceptives enter an unnatural element into the marital embrace with the intention of counter-acting the natural means that God has given us to space out pregnancies.[/quote] Yes, also, you can't just do it anytime you like with NFP. With a condom, you go against nature every time. NFP is not going against nature. There's nothing being impeded, and it also requires much more of a sacrifice. NFP goes along with a woman's natural, God-provided cycles that prevent a woman from getting pregnant every time she has sex. If God intended a woman to get pregnant every time she has sex, he wouldn't have made infertile periods in her cycle. If a family simply cannot afford to have a child, NFP is permissible; however if there is no good reason to use it and if it's only used for selfish reasons, it is not permissible. That is the position of the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1582216' date='Jun 24 2008, 10:21 PM']But that's what NFP is doing also. You are trying to counter-act God's will by having sex only on certain days. If your not counter-acting God's will, then you should be having sex whenever you and your spouse feel like it. Not on specific days with the sole intent of counter-acting God's will.[/quote] Wrong. Planning the size of your family by using the knowledge of your wife's menstrual cycle is wholly different than altering it by introducing chemicals into her body (the pill), wrapping your penis with a piece of rubber (condom), or mutilating your genitalia (vasectomy/tube-tying) because it does not seek to alter what God has created. The former works with God, while the latter works against. It isn't a sin to want to limit the size of your family; however, the methods employed impact whether or not you are in danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 lol I just saw your reply Alycin.. not trying to be a copycat, I just saw it after I posted mine. hehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I guess Aly, lilac_angel and myself are all on the same page... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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