Natural Family Planning Discussion

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1581595' date='Jun 24 2008, 02:30 PM']Believe me, you won't be forced to be turned into a baby-maker. It's not like women are fertile 24/7 anyway. I'm breastfeeding, and haven't had a return to fertility. This doesn't mean my husband & I can't have sex, but it does mean that each sex act must still leave open the possibility of life, even if conception is extremely unlikely.[/quote]
Does anyone mind if I ask exactly how natural family planning works? Information seems to be very sparse sometimes...

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1581646' date='Jun 24 2008, 09:26 PM']Does anyone mind if I ask exactly how natural family planning works? Information seems to be very sparse sometimes...[/quote]
Not at all, though you might want to start another thread if this becomes more about NFP.

We use the Billings Ovulation Method (there's also the Sympto-Thermal, and Creighton, and maybe others), so I write down every evening any observations regarding the sensations and appearance of cervical mucus throughout the day. It's really simple, because I just have to be aware as I go about my day. During the first part of the cycle, prior to ovulation, alternate evenings are available for intercourse. The reason that it is alternate evenings is to ensure I am accurately reading my signs, to note any changes in the mucus. When there is a change in the Basic Infertile Pattern (each woman has a BIP), that is generally considered to be a time of possible fertility. This may lead to ovulation, where a Peak is charted, or it may not, where the woman will return to the BIP. If you're trying to postpone conception, then you wait until 3 normal days past either of these events to resume intercourse. The time from the 4th day past Peak until the next cycle is available at any time.

If you're trying to conceive, then this can also help you to pinpoint your fertile times so that you know when conception is most likely and can take advantage of such times. [url="http://www.billings-ovulation-method.org/"] Here's their website.[/url]

Edited June 24, 2008 by Archaeology cat

[prose]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1581646' date='Jun 24 2008, 03:26 PM']Does anyone mind if I ask exactly how natural family planning works? Information seems to be very sparse sometimes...[/quote]

If you email me, I can give you lots of info. I am trained and do talks about it in marriage prep. Also, check out [url="http://www.billingsmethod.com"]http://www.billingsmethod.com[/url] and [url="http://woomb.com"]http://woomb.com[/url] There is lots of information on both sites including research etc.

I could fill a whole thread with info

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1581663' date='Jun 24 2008, 04:33 PM']Not at all, though you might want to start another thread if this becomes more about NFP.

We use the Billings Ovulation Method (there's also the Sympto-Thermal, and Creighton, and maybe others), so I write down every evening any observations regarding the sensations and appearance of cervical mucus throughout the day. It's really simple, because I just have to be aware as I go about my day. During the first part of the cycle, prior to ovulation, alternate evenings are available for intercourse. The reason that it is alternate evenings is to ensure I am accurately reading my signs, to note any changes in the mucus. When there is a change in the Basic Infertile Pattern (each woman has a BIP), that is generally considered to be a time of possible fertility. This may lead to ovulation, where a Peak is charted, or it may not, where the woman will return to the BIP. If you're trying to postpone conception, then you wait until 3 normal days past either of these events to resume intercourse. The time from the 4th day past Peak until the next cycle is available at any time.

If you're trying to conceive, then this can also help you to pinpoint your fertile times so that you know when conception is most likely and can take advantage of such times. [url="http://www.billings-ovulation-method.org/"] Here's their website.[/url][/quote]

That is an awful lot of trouble to avoid conceiving a child. It's putting so much thought into it - isn't that what contraception is, taking the necessary steps to make sure that a child isn't conceived? Yeah, yeah, NFP isn't 100% effective, but neither is, for example, using a condom. One could argue that while they are using a condom (97% effective, please correct me if I'm wrong), they are still "open to life" because there is the possibility that a child could be conceived.

[quote]Just because it is possible to get pregnant, doesn't mean that an action is open to life, was my point. Sorry if I was unclear...[/quote]

This can be applied to NFP, in my opinion. What if the couple wants to be seen as right in God's eyes but makes sure to have sexual intercourse only during the times they're less likely to get pregnant, because they want to get all the pleasure without having to worry about conception? Isn't this considered a mortal sin since their intentions are completely wrong? Maybe they are [b]physically[/b] "open to life" but they are definitely not [b]mentally[/b] or [b]spiritually[/b] open to it.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1581999' date='Jun 24 2008, 06:19 PM']That is an awful lot of trouble to avoid conceiving a child. It's putting so much thought into it - isn't that what contraception is, taking the necessary steps to make sure that a child isn't conceived? Yeah, yeah, NFP isn't 100% effective, but neither is, for example, using a condom. One could argue that while they are using a condom (97% effective, please correct me if I'm wrong), they are still "open to life" because there is the possibility that a child could be conceived.
This can be applied to NFP, in my opinion. What if the couple wants to be seen as right in God's eyes but makes sure to have sexual intercourse only during the times they're less likely to get pregnant, because they want to get all the pleasure without having to worry about conception? Isn't this considered a mortal sin since their intentions are completely wrong? Maybe they are [b]physically[/b] "open to life" but they are definitely not [b]mentally[/b] or [b]spiritually[/b] open to it.[/quote]
1) NFP is as effective as contraception, actually. The difference is that we aren't the ones trying to be in control. We are not doing anything to alter what we have (like the pill) or stop what naturally occurs from occuring (barriers or the pill).
2) Using NFP with a contraceptive mentality IS wrong. It is only supposed to be used with grave reason. That grave reason isn't defined, because it could vary from situation to situation, but that is something that each couple needs to check themselves on.

[havok579257]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1581999' date='Jun 24 2008, 07:19 PM']That is an awful lot of trouble to avoid conceiving a child. It's putting so much thought into it - isn't that what contraception is, taking the necessary steps to make sure that a child isn't conceived? Yeah, yeah, NFP isn't 100% effective, but neither is, for example, using a condom. One could argue that while they are using a condom (97% effective, please correct me if I'm wrong), they are still "open to life" because there is the possibility that a child could be conceived.
This can be applied to NFP, in my opinion. What if the couple wants to be seen as right in God's eyes but makes sure to have sexual intercourse only during the times they're less likely to get pregnant, because they want to get all the pleasure without having to worry about conception? Isn't this considered a mortal sin since their intentions are completely wrong? Maybe they are [b]physically[/b] "open to life" but they are definitely not [b]mentally[/b] or [b]spiritually[/b] open to it.[/quote]


I gotta agree with you on this. Yes, a couple is more likely going to get pregnant using NFP over says condoms, but the intent is to not have children. This definatly seems contradictory by the church. It seems like the church is saying that contraception is wrong unless its the one we approve of. To men both are forms of contraception.

Which then would also imply that abstinance is a form of contraception. If one does not have sex with their spouse for the sole reason of not wanting to get pregnant, is that not the same thing as using a contraceptive. Which is basically what NFP is. Avoiding sex during certain times to avoid having children.

It definatly seems like the church contradicts itself here.

[XIX]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1582042' date='Jun 24 2008, 08:35 PM']I gotta agree with you on this. Yes, a couple is more likely going to get pregnant using NFP over says condoms, but the intent is to not have children. This definatly seems contradictory by the church. It seems like the church is saying that contraception is wrong unless its the one we approve of. To men both are forms of contraception.

Which then would also imply that abstinance is a form of contraception. If one does not have sex with their spouse for the sole reason of not wanting to get pregnant, is that not the same thing as using a contraceptive. Which is basically what NFP is. Avoiding sex during certain times to avoid having children.

It definatly seems like the church contradicts itself here.[/quote]
The difference between NFP and contraception is roughly the same as the difference between letting your grandmother die naturally, and just killing her at age 80.

Maybe not on the same magnitude as a life and death situation, but it is a pretty decent analogy.

The thing about NFP (or having sex when you are otherwise infertile) is that the woman isn't holding anything back. She is giving everything she has--and so is he. It just so happens that "what she has" doesn't include a high level of fertility.

And if they really are the same, then why doesn't everybody just use NFP? I mean seriously, just try it for three months and see if it doesn't make a difference in your marriage.

[Alycin]

MissScripture has already done a fine job of explaining why NFP is not the same as condoms or the pill, so I want to touch on the abstinence thing.

Abstaining from having sex during fertile periods is a sacrifice and not at all like someone who wants the physical benefits of sex (pleasure, orgasm) but doesn't want to become pregnant. The latter is self-centered, and it is a sexual act that is not open to life.

Edited June 24, 2008 by Alycin

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1582058' date='Jun 24 2008, 06:42 PM']MissScripture has already done a fine job of explaining why NFP is not the same as condoms or the pill, so I want to touch on the abstinence thing.

Abstaining from having sex during fertile periods is a sacrifice and not at all like someone who wants the physical benefits of sex (pleasure, orgasm) but doesn't want to become pregnant. It's self-centered, and it is a sexual act that is not open to life.[/quote]
Thank you, I was feeling ignored.

[havok579257]

[quote name='XIX' post='1582053' date='Jun 24 2008, 07:41 PM']The difference between NFP and contraception is roughly the same as the difference between letting your grandmother die naturally, and just killing her at age 80.

Maybe not on the same magnitude as a life and death situation, but it is a pretty decent analogy.

The thing about NFP (or having sex when you are otherwise infertile) is that the woman isn't holding anything back. She is giving everything she has--and so is he. It just so happens that "what she has" doesn't include a high level of fertility.

And if they really are the same, then why doesn't everybody just use NFP? I mean seriously, just try it for three months and see if it doesn't make a difference in your marriage.[/quote]


But isn't the intent of NFP to avoid creating new life?

Are the couple not holding something back because they are choosing at certain times to abstain from sex to try and avoid creating life.

I thought the entire point of using condoms, the pill, what not was to avoid getting pregnant. How is NFP any different. Sure, your not using an actual device but your intent is still to not produce life. Your specifically avoiding sex on certain days to avoid creating life.

Other than not using an actual material thing(condom, pills) is not the intent the same, avoid creating life?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1582058' date='Jun 24 2008, 07:42 PM']MissScripture has already done a fine job of explaining why NFP is not the same as condoms or the pill, so I want to touch on the abstinence thing.

Abstaining from having sex during fertile periods is a sacrifice and not at all like someone who wants the physical benefits of sex (pleasure, orgasm) but doesn't want to become pregnant. The latter is self-centered, and it is a sexual act that is not open to life.[/quote]

I understand it is a sacrifice, but its being done so to best avoid creating life. Your having sex on specific days so you can enjoy the act of sex in marriage but avoid creating life. I don't see how there is a difference. Both instances you are avoiding creating life but still performing the sex act to satisfy you and your partner. The only difference is with one you can have sex all the time and the other(NFP) you can only have sex on certain days.

[prose]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1582042' date='Jun 24 2008, 06:35 PM']I gotta agree with you on this. Yes, a couple is more likely going to get pregnant using NFP over says condoms, but the intent is to not have children. This definatly seems contradictory by the church. It seems like the church is saying that contraception is wrong unless its the one we approve of. To men both are forms of contraception.

Which then would also imply that abstinance is a form of contraception. If one does not have sex with their spouse for the sole reason of not wanting to get pregnant, is that not the same thing as using a contraceptive. Which is basically what NFP is. Avoiding sex during certain times to avoid having children.

It definatly seems like the church contradicts itself here.[/quote]

I would HIGHLY recommend you get "Contraception, Why Not" By Janet Smith. It is free online (they will send you the CD for free), or you can find the manuscript (easier to listen to than read).

The simplest answer is that if the Church teaches that it is a legitimate way to space or postpone pregnancies, than it is okay to use to space or postpone pregnancies. Obviously, one should not be spacing or postponing pregnancies without serious reason, but that is up to the couple to discern, not anyone else.

[XIX]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1582080' date='Jun 24 2008, 08:46 PM']But isn't the intent of NFP to avoid creating new life?

Are the couple not holding something back because they are choosing at certain times to abstain from sex to try and avoid creating life.[/quote]
They aren't holding back when they are actually making love. That's the point. The intent here is to cooperate with what God has given you to avoid a pregnancy.

[quote]I thought the entire point of using condoms, the pill, what not was to avoid getting pregnant. How is NFP any different. Sure, your not using an actual device but your intent is still to not produce life. Your specifically avoiding sex on certain days to avoid creating life.[/quote]
The point of using the pill and condoms is not to avoid creating life, as abstinence is better at accomplishing this goal. It is to have sex and do whatever you want whenever you feel like it. The intent is to create your own method that disregards the way Gode has made us.

[havok579257]

[quote name='prose' post='1582090' date='Jun 24 2008, 07:50 PM']I would HIGHLY recommend you get "Contraception, Why Not" By Janet Smith. It is free online (they will send you the CD for free), or you can find the manuscript (easier to listen to than read).

The simplest answer is that if the Church teaches that it is a legitimate way to space or postpone pregnancies, than it is okay to use to space or postpone pregnancies. Obviously, one should not be spacing or postponing pregnancies without serious reason, but that is up to the couple to discern, not anyone else.[/quote]


But the intent of birth control(pills) is to space or postpone children. The intent is the same on both with in a marriage. Both have intent of avoiding creating life.

[Alycin]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1582100' date='Jun 24 2008, 07:53 PM']But the intent of birth control(pills) is to space or postpone children. The intent is the same on both with in a marriage. Both have intent of avoiding creating life.[/quote]

[quote name='XIX' post='1582095' date='Jun 24 2008, 07:51 PM']They aren't holding back when they are actually making love. That's the point. [size=5]The intent here is to cooperate with what God has given you to avoid a pregnancy.[/size]
The point of using the pill and condoms is not to avoid creating life, as abstinence is better at accomplishing this goal. It is to have sex and do whatever you want whenever you feel like it. The intent is to create your own method that disregards the way God has made us. [/quote]