picchick Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1582490' date='Jun 25 2008, 12:06 AM']There's no need for a 'crack down'! Please listen to what I've been saying this entire time. You're really misrepresenting me, and I don't appreciate that. [/quote] I am sorry, I didn't mean to misrepresent you. It sounds like you want to regulate homeschoolers to catch those who abuse. I am trying to show you from a homeschooled point of view what will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='picchick' post='1582488' date='Jun 24 2008, 11:06 PM']No you are not understanding this. There are so many people out there who DO NOT like homeschooling. To open the door a little is to make it fly open! Give an inch and they will take a mile.[/quote] If a very, very strict program (in terms of the monitors) were to be created, some kind of balance could be reached. Not everyone is unreasonable. For instance: the supervisor may spend no longer than a half hour talking to family members, and may not inquire as to the child's studies; they may only pay attention for signs of physical, emotional, or sexual abuse. These monitors would have to be nationally lisenced behavioural or child psychologists, and parents would be free to refuse to speak to any particular monitor that they believed was unfairly biased against them. Obviously this isn't perfect, but I wrote that in two and a half minutes. Imagine what could be done with more discussion, more openess to a few ideas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1582492' date='Jun 24 2008, 11:06 PM']I'm not yelling... on the internet, caps locks is used to yell. the questionmarks are expressing my shock at your position as I understand it. no yelling, don't worry. homsechooling families needn't be treated any differently than public schooling families. I don't consider publically schooled children any safer from parental child abuse than homeschooled ones... nor do I think that regular visits from the state would do anything to help.[/quote] Well then it's a matter of opinion? I'd tend to think that homeschooled children are more vulnerable only because of the fact that they are far more able to be isolated. If a publically schooled child is isolated like this, there are questions asked. I'm not saying that this is the only way abuse happens. I know that it happens in a multitude of terrible ways. Some probably happens like this though. I wouldn't be unreasonable to say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='picchick' post='1582494' date='Jun 24 2008, 11:08 PM']I am sorry, I didn't mean to misrepresent you. It sounds like you want to regulate homeschoolers to catch those who abuse. I am trying to show you from a homeschooled point of view what will happen.[/quote] I support the idea of homeschooling, you know. We're technically on the same side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I edited after you quoted me... [quote]abuse gets caught because a community pays attention (and homeschooling families are hardly isolated from the community) and reports suspicious behavior, or children call abuse hotlines or police themselves, or friends of abused children tell their parents and their parents report them... sure, sometimes it's a public school teacher that notices suspicious behavior; but sometimes it's a cashier at a supermarket or a next door neighbor or a friend's parent. no family, homeschooling or not, should be subjected to regular visits from big brother as if they're suspects just for having children and homeschooling those children.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1582496' date='Jun 25 2008, 12:10 AM']If a very, very strict program (in terms of the monitors) were to be created, some kind of balance could be reached. Not everyone is unreasonable. For instance: the supervisor may spend no longer than a half hour talking to family members, and may not inquire as to the child's studies; they may only pay attention for signs of physical, emotional, or sexual abuse. These monitors would have to be nationally lisenced behavioural or child psychologists, and parents would be free to refuse to speak to any particular monitor that they believed was unfairly biased against them. Obviously this isn't perfect, but I wrote that in two and a half minutes. Imagine what could be done with more discussion, more openess to a few ideas...[/quote] I am not trying to shoot down your ideas. I really am not. However, we have delt with psychologists. They question our schooling. The supervisors of the school districts are out for the schools. Some of the social workers have FORCED their way into families' homes. If you are going to set up a way to monitor homeschooled families for abuse, something needs to be done for other families. It sounds like you are meaning to monitor for abuse not necessarily studies. Just out of curiosity, were you homeschooled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='picchick' post='1582509' date='Jun 24 2008, 11:20 PM']I am not trying to shoot down your ideas. I really am not. However, we have delt with psychologists. They question our schooling. The supervisors of the school districts are out for the schools. Some of the social workers have FORCED their way into families' homes. If you are going to set up a way to monitor homeschooled families for abuse, something needs to be done for other families. It sounds like you are meaning to monitor for abuse not necessarily studies. Just out of curiosity, were you homeschooled?[/quote] I wasn't homeschooled, but I know more than the average person my age with no formal training about alternative education and stuff like that. Both of my brothers are classified as gifted, and went to a school that specifically was designed for that. I probably am classified that way as well, only difference is I never had the same problems as them in a traditional school setting (entirely luck) so I never wanted to be tested. The point is I have a great respect for homeschooling. I ever tried it for a very short time when there was a full teacher's strike. The only thing is that I see [b]some[/b] potential within the homeschooling program for abuse. Potential that isn't present within the traditional system. Sure, the idea I just gave was far from perfect, but if you accept that [b]some[/b] abuse could be stopped if [b]extremely limited[/b] programs were put in place, then maybe we have some common ground to work from? It's out of a sincere desire for children's safety. Not a wish to limit parent's rights. You know that, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I still disagree. The statistics don't bear out that homeschool children are any more at risk for abuse than any other type of children, and targetting homeschool families to be visited by some government agent on a regular basis is absolutely wrong even if you might catch some cases of child abuse. and since when is the public school system the "traditional" system? homeschooling is, in fact, the more traditional system as it is what has been happening since the beginning of the human race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1582572' date='Jun 25 2008, 12:13 AM']I still disagree. The statistics don't bear out that homeschool children are any more at risk for abuse than any other type of children, and targetting homeschool families to be visited by some government agent on a regular basis is absolutely wrong even if you might catch some cases of child abuse. and since when is the public school system the "traditional" system? homeschooling is, in fact, the more traditional system as it is what has been happening since the beginning of the human race.[/quote] Traditional was just a convenient term. Let's say traditional within the last sixty years? I don't know anything about statistics, so I'll assume you're right... in which case I have nothing to go on, other than what seems to be a logical progression but isn't. I still don't see it as targeting though. I only see it as giving the same sort of safety concerned supervision to homeschooled children that public school children get. I'm sure you guys are all right though. I've never researched this, never really participated in it, and haven't heard of any cases that bear me out. Also I clearly haven't thought through the issue as much as you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1582525' date='Jun 25 2008, 12:32 AM']The only thing is that I see [b]some[/b] potential within the homeschooling program for abuse. Potential that isn't present within the traditional system. Sure, the idea I just gave was far from perfect, but if you accept that [b]some[/b] abuse could be stopped if [b]extremely limited[/b] programs were put in place, then maybe we have some common ground to work from? It's out of a sincere desire for children's safety. Not a wish to limit parent's rights. You know that, don't you?[/quote] You are correct. I am all for children's safety. Believe me. But the way that you are talking about will open the door for the government to abuse homeschooling families. I have mentioned before. Give an inch, take a mile. It has already happened. Check out the link to see active and past cases. [url="http://www.hslda.org/legal/default.asp"]Click here for legal cases about homeschooling...[/url] What you are wrong about is that abuse [b]DOES[/b] occur within the traditional system that is abuse. I am living proof of it. Teachers over look bullying on a playground. A child gets called names by other classmates and then gets told by the teacher that "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me." The bullies do not get in trouble. Children are abused by teachers. You only know the cases where they get caught. What you seem to be alluding to is the fact that homeschooled families have the potential for abuse to occur due to the "isolated" nature of the program. You also mention that they should be monitored not for school purposes but by However, children are still abused by families and they go to school and the family never gets caught. It happens all the time. It is sad. So what I am saying is that to target homeschool families because a handful of children are abused by homeschooled families is discrimatory and ineffective. If you are going to find the abused children of homeschooled families, you need to do so in ALL families. The school system does not catch them all. [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1582577' date='Jun 25 2008, 01:21 AM']Traditional was just a convenient term. Let's say traditional within the last sixty years? I don't know anything about statistics, so I'll assume you're right... in which case I have nothing to go on, other than what seems to be a logical progression but isn't. I still don't see it as targeting though. I only see it as giving the same sort of safety concerned supervision to homeschooled children that public school children get. I'm sure you guys are all right though. I've never researched this, never really participated in it, and haven't heard of any cases that bear me out. Also I clearly haven't thought through the issue as much as you have.[/quote] Look, I went to public school for 5 years. Public school provided NO safety whatsoever when it comes to abuse. I have witnessed this personally. I was made fun of IN FRONT of the whole class by a student. The teacher did nothing. I was put in groups with kids who had mental disabilities. I did all the work. Why? Because I was nice. I started getting failing grades in 5th grade. The teacher did nothing except say, "You need to do better." She didn't even talk to my parents. My spelling is outrageous. Can this not be considered neglect? Is not neglect a form of abuse? A teacher in 4th grade asked the class to give an example of an adjective in a sentence. I said, "The horse is beautiful." His reply? "Horses are not beautiful. They are animals." What about that thread a while back about the boy who was made an example of in class? The potential for abuse in public schools exist. Furthermore, the go undected because they are not considered in the traditional sense of abuse. But they are real, they are hurtful and they are rampant. I understand where you are coming from and I agree that ALL children need protection from abuse. But abuse happens in all families regardless of the school status. The public school does not and cannot catch all the abuse in families. I am just saying that any regulation put in place to safeguard children will not work to the purpose that you are trying to achieve. It will instead backfire and open the door for more restrictions, regulations, and stress on homeschooled families. Meg I am too tired to go back and read this post. I have 87% of my camping pictures downloaded and I really need to sleep....I apologize for grammar and spelling errors in the above post. Meg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Having been a classroom teacher, I can say that I was not at all prepared to be a madated reporter-- but by law I was. I was a fresh out of college, early twenties gal with no training in detecting child abuse. Yet if I suspected it I was mandated by law to report it to authorities. Based on what? No idea.... how this protected the children in my charge, I don't know. Abuse could have easily slipped past my watchful eye. Like most parents, most homeschoolers take their children to the doctor for checkups and various other reasons-- ear infections, strep, falls from the monkey bars, hacking coughs that won't go away, etc. And, guess what? The doctor (who IS trained in being able to decern various kinds of bumps and bruises, lacerations and breaks) examines the child! And guess what? S/he and all the nursing staff in the office are also mandated reporters. And don't think that having the authorities brought in doesn't worry most legit, caring, doing the right thing homeschoolers-- it does. Getting in to a dispute with a neighbor over... whatever.... and who knows if that angry neighbor will decide that s/he thinks your kids are spending too much time outside on a school day... or that your slender child looks a little tooooo slender.... or maybe you have too many kids... whatever. It worries us because getting the authorities involved where they don't belong (investigating parents who have done NOTHING WRONG), causes trauma for thier children (they are taken to FOSTER CARE) and there could be a lengthy process to GET YOUR OWN CHILDREN BACK. What may be done with the intention of catching abuse in one household may actually inflict trauma (by the system) on an innocent household. So, um, yeah.... leave me alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy Lionheart Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 homeschoolin does need to be regulated the chances for a child to slip under the radar to bascically be locked up and not go enywhere are horrible reporting needs to be very tight and someone other than the parents and other homeschoolers need to see the kid i am sorry but in my own life and in my friends lifes homeschooling was bad we call ourselvs forgotton children now that were older because as kids we disapered from society and people just forgot we ever exizted some of us were singled out in or families but some were not...like the two sisters in our group some people even knew our sibilins but not us so they thought everythin was fine and unfortunatly our group keeps growing everytime another lost adult 'homeschooler' needs a friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1582706' date='Jun 25 2008, 08:41 AM']Having been a classroom teacher, I can say that I was not at all prepared to be a madated reporter-- but by law I was. I was a fresh out of college, early twenties gal with no training in detecting child abuse. Yet if I suspected it I was mandated by law to report it to authorities. Based on what? No idea.... how this protected the children in my charge, I don't know. Abuse could have easily slipped past my watchful eye. Like most parents, most homeschoolers take their children to the doctor for checkups and various other reasons-- ear infections, strep, falls from the monkey bars, hacking coughs that won't go away, etc. And, guess what? The doctor (who IS trained in being able to decern various kinds of bumps and bruises, lacerations and breaks) examines the child! And guess what? S/he and all the nursing staff in the office are also mandated reporters. And don't think that having the authorities brought in doesn't worry most legit, caring, doing the right thing homeschoolers-- it does. Getting in to a dispute with a neighbor over... whatever.... and who knows if that angry neighbor will decide that s/he thinks your kids are spending too much time outside on a school day... or that your slender child looks a little tooooo slender.... or maybe you have too many kids... whatever. It worries us because getting the authorities involved where they don't belong (investigating parents who have done NOTHING WRONG), causes trauma for thier children (they are taken to FOSTER CARE) and there could be a lengthy process to GET YOUR OWN CHILDREN BACK. What may be done with the intention of catching abuse in one household may actually inflict trauma (by the system) on an innocent household. So, um, yeah.... leave me alone. [/quote] Or if your house is not immaculate? That always scared me. I mean we kept the house clean but I always had a little brother who would be playing with half a dozen toys in the frontroom and whatnot. You know it is very very scary. I remember one time that our phone kept dialing 911 by itself. It was very weird but two police officers showed up at our door during the day. They didn't even ask to come in, they just came in. They looked around near the phone and told my mom, "Someone made a 911 call to us and then hung up." My mom said that no one was touching the phone but they insisted that we did. They walked through the frontroom and to the phone area and then walked back to the door. Now I have little brothers so the house isn't like perfect clean. At that time it was laundry day, I believe, and mom was folding clothes on the couch and there were toys on the front room floor. I cannot tell you how freaked out mom and I were about these cops coming in. They didn't ask what we were doing home but the fact that they could have reported mom was absolutely scary. They left the house and nothing happened but still it was scary. It happened again that night or the next night that the phone called 911 (my mom was on the phone at the time) and a bunch of cops came. But yes, I think I am hyperviligant about people around me. Our neighbors are good but I tell ya, one report and there will officials down your back in a hurry. Meg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted June 25, 2008 Author Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Lucy Lionheart' post='1582712' date='Jun 25 2008, 09:52 AM']we call ourselvs forgotton children now that were older because as kids we disapered from society and people just forgot we ever exizted[/quote] Sorry to hear that. Though such a problem is not exclusive to homeschoolers, it affects even those in the public and private schools. To generalize or single out homeschooling as the problem, is not only premature, but does a grave disservice to the rest of us who did not 'disappear' from society. Not every person who secludes themselves inside a house, while playing MMORPGs 60 hours a week (I'm a gamer, not bashing gamers), aren't just homeschoolers. In fact, the average age for a gamer is around 28-30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Lucy Lionheart' post='1582712' date='Jun 25 2008, 08:52 AM']homeschoolin does need to be regulated the chances for a child to slip under the radar to bascically be locked up and not go enywhere are horrible reporting needs to be very tight and someone other than the parents and other homeschoolers need to see the kid i am sorry but in my own life and in my friends lifes homeschooling was bad we call ourselvs forgotton children now that were older because as kids we disapered from society and people just forgot we ever exizted some of us were singled out in or families but some were not...like the two sisters in our group some people even knew our sibilins but not us so they thought everythin was fine and unfortunatly our group keeps growing everytime another lost adult 'homeschooler' needs a friend[/quote] Nevermind...Pal D said it better. Edited June 25, 2008 by picchick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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