Homeschooling Illegal In California - Fight Is Still On

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1582123' date='Jun 24 2008, 08:02 PM']Why don't they just set up a program to monitor homeschooling systems?
Obviously it's more government intereference where it probably isn't needed, but it would help them find that handful of abuse and overly sheltering cases that probably exist.
Just have parents apply for a homeschool license. Maybe have them take a test to make sure they know their kid's curriculum. Then have a school officer check in once, twice a year to make sure everything is copacetic.[/quote]

But see, it's not the school's responsibility or business to do so. Does the grocery store come to your house to make sure you are eating healthy meals? Parents are responsible to educate their children. Public school is one option-- one tool-- that a family might choose in order to do so.

The problem with requiring parents to pass a test in all subjects to make sure that they know their kids' curriculum is that they may not be the only ones teaching them. For example, there are online classes and tutoring classes. Do I have to pass a test to "teach" those when I am not actually teaching them?

Many states already require annual standardized testing for HSers. (our public schoolers take tests in 3, 6, and 9th grades or something like that). We test every year. We are well aware of our children's weaknesses and strengths.

Believe it or not, 99% of homeschoolers really, really want to give their children a good education. They (well, I guess, we) research curricula, co-ops and other resources and find ways to overcome our own academic weaknesses. Most of us don't stop teaching math because it becomes too difficult-- we find other ways to teach it (the public schools don't change curriculum to meet that need).

I won't even address the mythical socialization issue, because it's a non-issue.

[picchick]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1582123' date='Jun 24 2008, 08:02 PM']Why don't they just set up a program to monitor homeschooling systems?
Obviously it's more government intereference where it probably isn't needed, but it would help them find that handful of abuse and overly sheltering cases that probably exist.
Just have parents apply for a homeschool license. Maybe have them take a test to make sure they know their kid's curriculum. Then have a school officer check in once, twice a year to make sure everything is copacetic.[/quote]


No way!

The problem with this is the fact that the find "abuse" where there is no abuse. In homeschool legal defense magazine, there are a bunch of cases where the state tries to interfere with a family's schooling where they have no right to do so. Sometimes a social worker will show up at a house and demand to speak to the children. I am totally against any government interference in schooling at all.

What I am finding in Public schools today is that they teach to the standardized tests. The beauty of homeschooling is the fact that the curriculum is tailored for the child and not the state. The child learns at his/her pace rather than the pace of what the state says it should be.

I believe that it is against the right to privacy for a school official to "check-in". They have no right to do so. It leaves the door open for them to find "problems". Leave homeschooling families alone. It is not the government's job or responsibility to check in on families to make sure that they are "up to par". It is unfortunate that some families are "bad" homeschoolers. Hopefully the homeschoolers who are doing it right can set an example.

Meg

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='picchick' post='1582389' date='Jun 24 2008, 10:02 PM']No way!

The problem with this is the fact that the find "abuse" where there is no abuse. In homeschool legal defense magazine, there are a bunch of cases where the state tries to interfere with a family's schooling where they have no right to do so. Sometimes a social worker will show up at a house and demand to speak to the children. I am totally against any government interference in schooling at all.

What I am finding in Public schools today is that they teach to the standardized tests. The beauty of homeschooling is the fact that the curriculum is tailored for the child and not the state. The child learns at his/her pace rather than the pace of what the state says it should be.

I believe that it is against the right to privacy for a school official to "check-in". They have no right to do so. It leaves the door open for them to find "problems". Leave homeschooling families alone. It is not the government's job or responsibility to check in on families to make sure that they are "up to par". It is unfortunate that some families are "bad" homeschoolers. Hopefully the homeschoolers who are doing it right can set an example.

Meg[/quote]

But wouldn't a bit of interference and annoyance be acceptable if it caught those few times where there is real abuse going on? I'm sure there's a handful of cases in the last fifty years where there was real, terrible abuse to homeschooled children by their parents. Sure, there were many many more cases where things worked out perfectly. Couldn't there be a minimum of interference, just the bare minimum required in order to catch the few abuses that do happen?

[Aloysius]

there is no more risk of child abuse in homeschool families than there is in public school families... why should they be subjected to unjust harassment merely for exercising their parental authority over their children's education?

and don't tell me public school teachers catch the abuse better... when they're not abusing children themselves, most cases of parental abuse are easily hidden from them.

yes, child abuse is a heinous crime which the state needs to prosecute against if/when it discovers it. but not educating someone to the standards or specifications of the state is not a crime. the crime is that the state thinks it has the authority to decide what parents are permitted to teach their children. as far as I am concerned, parental authority extends so far that parents even have the right to teach their children racism without interference from the state... this is a free country and parents have authority over their children, wrong ideas need to be combatted not be tyranny but by right ideas.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1582415' date='Jun 24 2008, 10:24 PM']there is no more risk of child abuse in homeschool families than there is in public school families... why should they be subjected to unjust harassment merely for exercising their parental authority over their children's education?

and don't tell me public school teachers catch the abuse better... when they're not abusing children themselves, most cases of parental abuse are easily hidden from them.

yes, child abuse is a heinous crime which the state needs to prosecute against if/when it discovers it. but not educating someone to the standards or specifications of the state is not a crime. the crime is that the state thinks it has the authority to decide what parents are permitted to teach their children. as far as I am concerned, parental authority extends so far that parents even have the right to teach their children racism without interference from the state... this is a free country and parents have authority over their children, wrong ideas need to be combatted not be tyranny but by right ideas.[/quote]
Fair enough...
...but at least in public schools, there is some form of authority there to supervise the kids. Maybe that makes it easier to catch if a teacher abuses chidren in their class?
...but in homeschooling, the teacher (parent) can abuse the student (child) with less threat of detection.
Now I'll agree, parents should be basically given free reign to teach their own children. In fact I think it's even preferred, at least if the parent is competent. "Sex-ed", in particular, I think should be left entirely to parents no matter how a child is schooled.
The fact is though, no one is perfect. The public system has downfalls, as does home schooling. In public schools, at least there is some chance tha the worst of these are noticed. If home schooling parents were left entirely alone, there's far less of a chance.

[Aloysius]

"some form of authority to supervise the kids"... because a disinterested party with a college certification to educate is automatically more trustworthy than a parent? imagine all the things those college-certified teachers likely did in college and get back to me on how qualified they are to protect children from their own parents.

as long as the abuse doesn't make visible bruises, I'm not seeing where you see the increased likelihood of a public school teacher catching it.

on what world does the state have the authority and obligation to moniter our children on a regular basis? sure, a totalitarian state could crack down on a lot of heinous crimes, but it would be at the expense of freedom and privacy. sorry, but continuous monitering of homeschooled children is tantamount to treating their parents as criminals, and it's unconstitutional and tyrranical.

[picchick]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1582396' date='Jun 24 2008, 11:09 PM']But wouldn't a bit of interference and annoyance be acceptable if it caught those few times where there is real abuse going on? I'm sure there's a handful of cases in the last fifty years where there was real, terrible abuse to homeschooled children by their parents. Sure, there were many many more cases where things worked out perfectly. Couldn't there be a minimum of interference, just the bare minimum required in order to catch the few abuses that do happen?[/quote]

No because all those families who are not abusing, which is the majority, will suffer.

How much abuse occurs within the public schools at the hands of teachers and students and peers alike.

Meg

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='picchick' post='1582455' date='Jun 24 2008, 10:47 PM']No because all those families who are not abusing, which is the majority, will suffer.

How much abuse occurs within the public schools at the hands of teachers and students and peers alike.

Meg[/quote]
I can't answer that, but I know there is some. I know this because it's caught and reported.
Doesn't some degree of inconvenience take second place to safety of children?
I'm not saying that you should regulate homeschooling like the government in California seems to want to, but I don't think it should be a legal vacuum either.

[Aloysius]

????? are you serious? the relationship between parent and child cannot go on without the regular supervision of someone connected to the state???? that's your solution to end child abuse?

like I said: totalitarianism can crack down on a lot of heinous crimes, but it's not worth sacrificing freedom.

[picchick]

Homeschooling families need to be monitored like every other family. However, not the schooling. So many homeschooling families are reported for child abuse. This can happen with any family. Fine, but as far as regulating because of child abuse, what is stopping this from opening the door to reporting problems that do not exist? What about families who abuse their children but do not homeschool? I bet that there are more families like that who do not homeschool.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1582468' date='Jun 24 2008, 10:55 PM']????? are you serious? the relationship between parent and child cannot go on without the regular supervision of someone connected to the state???? that's your solution to end child abuse?

like I said: totalitarianism can crack down on a lot of heinous crimes, but it's not worth sacrificing freedom.[/quote]
No need to get angry.
We don't need to go to extremes. I just think that a little bit ((KEYWORD IS LITTLE)) of inconvenience could be suffered for the sake of catching some child abuse.
Obviously not all will be caught. Far from it, but a few more. There's nothing morally wrong with some appointed official coming by once a year to talk to the family for fifteen minutes, but there's a heck of a lot morally right about catching two or three disgusting child abusers.
Now... No more yelling at me. That's not why I joined this forum.


[quote]I bet that there are more families like that who do not homeschool.[/quote]
I have no doubt that there are, but all I'm saying is that a couple more abusive relationships could be stopped, at the price of some minor inconvenience.
...and yes, it *could* be very minor, if it was dealt with in the proper manner.
All I'm saying... it's possible.

Edited June 25, 2008 by Nihil Obstat

[picchick]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1582468' date='Jun 24 2008, 11:55 PM']????? are you serious? the relationship between parent and child cannot go on without the regular supervision of someone connected to the state???? that's your solution to end child abuse?

like I said: totalitarianism can crack down on a lot of heinous crimes, but it's not worth sacrificing freedom.[/quote]

Totally agree! Child abuse is not going stop by cracking down on homeschooled families. It will make problems for homeschooled families.

[picchick]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1582476' date='Jun 25 2008, 12:00 AM'] No need to get angry.
We don't need to go to extremes. I just think that a little bit ((KEYWORD IS LITTLE)) of inconvenience could be suffered for the sake of catching some child abuse.
Obviously not all will be caught. Far from it, but a few more. There's nothing morally wrong with some appointed official coming by once a year to talk to the family for fifteen minutes, but there's a heck of a lot morally right about catching two or three disgusting child abusers.
Now... No more yelling at me. That's not why I joined this forum.



I have no doubt that there are, but all I'm saying is that a couple more abusive relationships could be stopped, at the price of some minor inconvenience.
...and yes, it *could* be very minor, if it was dealt with in the proper manner.
All I'm saying... it's possible.[/quote]


No you are not understanding this. There are so many people out there who DO NOT like homeschooling. To open the door a little is to make it fly open! Give an inch and they will take a mile.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='picchick' post='1582485' date='Jun 24 2008, 11:03 PM']Totally agree! Child abuse is not going stop by cracking down on homeschooled families. It will make problems for homeschooled families.[/quote]
There's no need for a 'crack down'! Please listen to what I've been saying this entire time. You're really misrepresenting me, and I don't appreciate that.

[Aloysius]

I'm not yelling... on the internet, caps locks is used to yell. the questionmarks are expressing my shock at your position as I understand it. no yelling, don't worry.

homsechooling families needn't be treated any differently than public schooling families. I don't consider publically schooled children any safer from parental child abuse than homeschooled ones... nor do I think that regular visits from the state would do anything to help.

I think your theory of government and how it can adequately fight crime is a bit off. Again, it's treating homeschooling families as if they're criminal or more likely to abuse children; treating homeschooling as if it is something wrong. there are no statistics bearing that out, there is no reason to treat homeschooling like something wrong.

abuse gets caught because a community pays attention (and homeschooling families are hardly isolated from the community) and reports suspicious behavior, or children call abuse hotlines or police themselves, or friends of abused children tell their parents and their parents report them... sure, sometimes it's a public school teacher that notices suspicious behavior; but sometimes it's a cashier at a supermarket or a next door neighbor or a friend's parent. no family, homeschooling or not, should be subjected to regular visits from big brother as if they're suspects just for having children and homeschooling those children.