The Flesh Is Worthless

[Brother Adam]

As you know, I'm studing the Eucharist and everything I can get my hands on regarding it. The following is from an anti-Catholic. How would you respond?

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Brother Adam:You note that in verse 63 when Christ says "flesh profit nothing...the words that I speak unto you...they are life" is Christ explaining that Real Presence is a silly way to look at what he has just said. In other words- quit looking at this as a literal sacrifice, it is your belief in me that matters. Correct?

BobRyan:

No.

Christ did not say "some day in the future I will become real food".

He did not say "some day in the future you will have to eat my flesh as food".

Christ said that it was "present reality".

Christ said that the bread of heaven ALREADY came down.

The wooden interpretation that ignores Christ's own explanation (Where Christ states explicitly that simply eating literal flesh "profits nothing" in terms of the stated goal - obtaining eternal life) must cast about itself and ignore many other clear details in John 6 as well.

Christ's faithLESS disciples are the only ones making the RC case.

Christ Himself denies it - by showing "in the context of the John 6 discussion on eating His flesh" that "The Flesh is literally worthless" for that purpose.

Exegesis "demands that we not ignore context" and the "context" to John 6 is "The WORD became FLESH".

Exegesis "demands context" and the "context" for the "Bread that came down out of heaven" is the LESSON of Manna in Deut 8:3 where God says that the entire point of the "bread that came down out of heaven" was to "show that man does NOT live by bread alone BUT RATHER by EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God"

All these "contexts" must be ignored AND then the clarifying words of Christ himself must also be "faithfully ignored" to "reach" for the RC tradition that "it is what you eat that saves you".

As I said before - I think this is "impossible" for someone to swallow that is not "already Catholic".

"In other words" - I think that those that to convert to Catholicism on the basis of John 6 - have not really thought through the "Details" of the "context". I think they are not used to employing sound exegetical methods when studying the Bible. Of course you are not RC and this is not speaking about you -- but I am just saying.

In John 15 Christ said "IF you ABIDE in Me and I IN you"... (And I know the Catholic Church would just "love" to jump on this as our eathing Christ's flesh and then His eating ours but...) and then clarifies the statement in that SAME chapter saying "if you abide IN ME and MY WORDs abide IN YOU".

So "yes" it is the "words of Christ" that "Give Life" In fact Christ said "My WORDS are Spirit and are Life".

The "entire purpose" of John 6 "eating" was to "obtain LIFE" and Christ makes it clear that for obtaining LIFE "The Flesh is Worthless -- My WORDS are Spirit and are LIFE".

In Christ,

Bob

Source: http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultima.../28/2471/5.html?

[Joseph]

1 Corinthians 11:24-29 NIV

23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

This was one of the things I could not get past when trying to determine if the Eucharist was REAL or just symbolic. If it were only symbolic, it doesn't make any sense to me why Paul would say this.

Edited February 29, 2004 by Joseph

[Aloysius]

#1 http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=8187

#2 John 6 is Christ declaring He is the Son of God come down in the flesh from heaven. But that is not the only meaning. every word that comes out of the Sacred lips of our Blessed Lord has such truth which surpasses just one interpretation. It is also the promise of the Eucharist, it is not in itself the Eucharist, it is a teaching that He came down from Heaven, it is a teaching that our faith in Him guides us, it was taken to mean His physical flesh, He did not deny this but to those faithless ppl He said "the flesh profiteth nothing" for the flesh is symbolic of human understanding, human reason, human reason which says A) He could not have come down from Heaven, He's the son of Mary and Joseph and B) We could not eat His flesh. human reason, flesh, has profited them nothing in their understanding. it is the spirit that gives life. it is Christ's Spirit which makes His Body and Blood Soul and Divinity fully present in the Eucharist later at the last supper, to make His Soul and Divinity strengthen our spirit and physically be with us so that the unbloody sacrifice might benefit us all by it's real physical presence.

his entire argument is based on pointless symantics which fail to recognize the Jewish symbolism of the "flesh" and the "spirit" (which of course, if it was symbolic when He spoke of eating it to obtain eternal life, would have been ridiculous and illogical)

[Jake Huether]

Bro.

John 6 happens right after Jesus feeds the 5000. So, they were following him for food (physical hunger).

After explaining to them that they must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, they think He is talking to them about physical sustanance. They think that they must eat His Body in order to remain alive physically.

But he doesn't take back his words. He clarifies them. You must eat My Body and drink My Blood, not for your physical nourishment - the flesh profits nothing, but for your spiritual nourishment - My words are Spirit and Life.

If you try to reconcile this statement by saying that His Body and Blood were symbolic, then you contradict Christ Himself. He said, "for My Flesh is REAL food and My Blood REAL drink".

It is REAL. It is Physical. OUR flesh profits nothing. His FLESH brings us SALVATION.

[God Conquers]

Yes Jake! I was gonna write just that!

Flesh in the instance spoken about is our fallen nature! It is worthless. Christ's words redeem, just like His flesh.

[Jake Huether]

Yes Jake! I was gonna write just that!

You would have done a better job. ^_^

[God Conquers]

I doubt it Mr. Church Militant!

[Jake Huether]

:lol:

[IcePrincessKRS]

He's right Jake. That was an amesome post. :)

[ironmonk]

This is some of how I would respond to him....

Are you sure that it's not your own spin on what the Scriptures say?

Have you looked at what the ECF's wrote, the very disciples that Christ said "make disciples of nations"?

Christ did say "This is my flesh/blood".

Christ tells us that for us to have life in us we "must eat my flesh and drink my blood or you will have no life in you".

People walked away because they said "How can this man give us his flesh to eat" - St. John 6:66 - Mark of the beast? - It's poetic how those that reject the Real Pressence that the verse is 6:66. If it was figurative, why didn't Christ explain it as a parable as He did everywhere else when He spoke in Parables?

Why did all Christians believe in the Real Pressence for over a thousand years?

Why did Paul say that we would eat judgement on ourselves if we take of the Body and Blood unworthy if it was just bread?

Do you think it's impossible for Jesus to make the Eucharist His flesh?

Then refer to:

www.Catholic.com

www.Catholic-Pages.com

www.ScriptureCatholic.com

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk