Lil Red Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 +J.M.J.+ let's try not get into too much detail, but i will add this disclaimer: [b][color="#FF0000"]this is a mature subject matter. if you are not comfortable with this subject, please do not go any further. if reading this topic could lead you into sin, please do not read any further.[/color][/b] this was brought up by Kitty [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=81595&view=findpost&p=1579975"]here[/url] in the masturbation thread in open mic. [quote name='Kitty' post='1579975' date='Jun 22 2008, 10:57 PM']I just think that if a married man and a woman want to cuddle or have fun with each other in sexual acts, but not actual intercourse, then they should be allowed by the Church without having a guilty conscience. I mean, if the man and the woman don't really feel like sex, but just want to play, then why not? It's an opportunity for them to come closer to each other and really just love each other deeply for a while. I just can't understand the Church's stance that any sex act within marriage that is not open to life is a sin. It's like they're saying "yes, yes, get married before you have sex...but wait, there's some things you can't do even AFTER you're married." I mean, geez. Invasion of privacy much?[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 When refering to masturbation in this sense, this doesn't just refer to genital stimulation (aka, foreplay), correct? If it's in the traditional sense (outside of the 'proper place'), then I would vote "No", it's never acceptible. Foreplay/stimulation is, but not this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 I personally would feel very cheated by this, even if I were being, er, stimulated, as well. I felt horrible when I was on the pill, because I didn't feel like I was giving all of myself to my husband, and I feel certain I'd feel the same way regarding mutual masturbation. Regardless of how I feel, though, it is not open to life, nor do I feel it is completely unitive, and therefore is not acceptable. Note that I am not speaking of foreplay, but where masturbation is the entirety of the act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 [quote name='Paladin D' post='1580169' date='Jun 23 2008, 11:40 AM']If it's in the traditional sense (outside of the 'proper place'), then I would vote "No", it's never acceptible. Foreplay/stimulation is, but not this.[/quote] And only foreplay/stimulation when it is centered in the marital embrace. Outside of this context it would be a sin. [quote]I mean, if the man and the woman don't really feel like sex, but just want to play, then why not? It's an opportunity for them to come closer to each other and really just love each other deeply for a while.[/quote] Masturbation to the point of orgasm outside of the context of marital embrace would be gravely wrong. The marital embrace is the deepest form of love a couple can show one another because their bodies as well as their souls become one. Masturbation often just seeks sexual pleasure, and if this is done outside of the context of the marital embrace you run the great risk of objectifying or using your spouse. If a man and a woman don't really feel like having sex, then why would they be stimulating each other? That type of stimulation often results in the same results of the marital embrace, (orgasm). Again that type of "playing" would most likely be simply pleasure seeking rather than being one, which is what the marital embrace is about. Outside of the context of the marital embrace it would be both lacking the unitive and procreative aspects of marriage. Those are written in natural law, it's not something the Church made up. Suggested reading: Good News about Sex and Marriage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddington Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Do they have to "finish" a started intercourse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 23, 2008 Author Share Posted June 23, 2008 +J.M.J.+ this might be too much detail, but: what if a woman cannot climax inside of the marital embrace? or what if the woman or man is not physically able to have sex (for instance, injury or the last months of pregnancy)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 [quote name='StColette' post='1580177' date='Jun 23 2008, 12:52 PM']And only foreplay/stimulation when it is centered in the marital embrace. Outside of this context it would be a sin.[/quote] Yeah, that's what I met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1580187' date='Jun 23 2008, 12:02 PM']+J.M.J.+ this might be too much detail, but: what if a woman cannot climax inside of the marital embrace? or what if the woman or man is not physically able to have sex (for instance, injury or the last months of pregnancy)?[/quote] In case one with the woman, if marital embrace was involved and she cannot reach climax that way then her spouse can help her get there in other ways Theology of the Body touches on this if I remember correctly. Case B, I don't think it could be allowed because marital embrace would not be involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 (edited) [b]DOH!!!![/b] I voted 'No' by mistake, met to vote the 'Yes'. Sorry about that. Edited June 23, 2008 by Paladin D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 23, 2008 Author Share Posted June 23, 2008 [quote name='StColette' post='1580192' date='Jun 23 2008, 10:06 AM']In case one with the woman, if marital embrace was involved and she cannot reach climax that way then her spouse can help her get there in other ways Theology of the Body touches on this if I remember correctly. Case B, I don't think it could be allowed because marital embrace would not be involved.[/quote] +J.M.J.+ honestly, this has always confused me. even if the woman is already pregnant? i mean, obviously they are already open to life. i'm not saying that it's all about sex, but some women (i'm not speaking personally here, just generally), during pregnancy their sex drive is through the roof (other women not so much), and it can be uncomfortable to have sex during the later stages of pregnancy. and so, umm yeah. i was going to say something else but i forgot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1580195' date='Jun 23 2008, 12:12 PM']+J.M.J.+ honestly, this has always confused me. even if the woman is already pregnant? i mean, obviously they are already open to life. i'm not saying that it's all about sex, but some women (i'm not speaking personally here, just generally), during pregnancy their sex drive is through the roof (other women not so much), and it can be uncomfortable to have sex during the later stages of pregnancy.[/quote] The marital embrace isn't just procreative it's also unitive, two fold. Even though she is pregnant the sexual act can still be considered open to life, because if she weren't pregnant the openness to conception would still be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 23, 2008 Author Share Posted June 23, 2008 [quote name='Paladin D' post='1580193' date='Jun 23 2008, 10:07 AM'][b]DOH!!!![/b] I voted 'No' by mistake, met to vote the 'Yes'. Sorry about that.[/quote] +J.M.J.+ which yes and i'll fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 23, 2008 Author Share Posted June 23, 2008 [quote name='StColette' post='1580196' date='Jun 23 2008, 10:13 AM']The marital embrace isn't just procreative it's also unitive, two fold.[/quote] +J.M.J.+ i know that but cannot mutual masturbation also be unitive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1580195' date='Jun 23 2008, 01:12 PM']+J.M.J.+ honestly, this has always confused me. even if the woman is already pregnant? i mean, obviously they are already open to life. i'm not saying that it's all about sex, but some women (i'm not speaking personally here, just generally), during pregnancy their sex drive is through the roof (other women not so much), and it can be uncomfortable to have sex during the later stages of pregnancy. and so, umm yeah. i was going to say something else but i forgot.[/quote] You know, that question was on my mind a while back, but never got around to asking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1580198' date='Jun 23 2008, 12:14 PM']+J.M.J.+ i know that but cannot mutual masturbation also be unitive?[/quote] The two bodies aren't becoming one, plus umm a man's orgasm must take place in his wife, not outside, even if she is already pregnant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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