missionseeker Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Ok.. So.. I am working on a systematic defense of Sacred Music and in reading the new document from the American bishops, am finding.. not blatant contradictions, per se but... deliberate obfuscation of things that the Vatican says. It doesn't jive. And people who oppose my "views" or "preferences" as they say use the documents from the bishops. (Because it justifies what they do). SO... what do I do? How does one say- "the bishops are wrong" without saying the bishops are wrong??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 I would first have several others read the document from the Bishops and make sure that you are not reading it with a bias towards what you expect it to say. I am not saying you are, just saying get other opinions. If they are not in direct opposition to the Vatican. I would just offer it up. If it is in direct opposition. I would just offer it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Maintaining humility does not mean that you cannot properly notice and point out differences between what is being said in documents. It is not unfaithful on your part to ask questions. It can be both truthful and charitable, to indicate that the bishops are receiving and interpreting a document or a teaching in a way that is not simply linguistically the same as the original document or teaching. The next step is to ask if they are really saying something different (are they just using different words to express the same thing?) and if they are saying something different, then why is that the case (are they actually disagreeing with a previous teaching, or are they just emphasizing something that the original teaching pointed to but didn't quite articulate?). There can be a number of reasons why things aren't matching up linguistically, and many of them have nothing to do with being unfaithful. Sounds like you have quite a project going on that will require some careful thinking--good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fr. Antony Maria OSB Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I just spoke to my church's music minister today, and she said that currently a document submitted by the English speaking bishops for liturgical music to the Vatican for approval. I don't know if this is what you're talking about, but I thought I'd let you know in case it helps out at all. Good luck on your thesis either way! May God bless and protect you always in all of your endeavors! Your Brother in Christ, Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Which document are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fr. Antony Maria OSB Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I really don't know. My music minister didn't say...just that it was submitted to the Vatican and she was waiting to hear what the Vatican said before she made any changes according to that document. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionseeker Posted June 25, 2008 Author Share Posted June 25, 2008 The one I am reading is Sing to Lord. I mean, there is nothing blatant (just not correct... I know that doesn't make sense...) But everything is very easily twisted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) Could you show some examples? You have sparked my interest. I've flicked through it and it does seem very sketchy. It seems like the bishops don't really know what they're talking about. They way they write about postures and actions in relation to singing worries me too. It leaves everything open to interpretation. Edited June 25, 2008 by Noel's angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) #89 talks about the use of cymbals, which have been clearly outlawed in the past, along with pianos etc. The more I read, the worse it gets. It looks like someone has sat down and written this out from memory, without any re-draft or anything. What percussion instruments are 'apt'??? #99 mentions the piano specifically, I see. Edited June 25, 2008 by Noel's angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionseeker Posted June 25, 2008 Author Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Noel's angel' post='1583208' date='Jun 25 2008, 05:54 PM']#89 talks about the use of cymbals, which have been clearly outlawed in the past, along with pianos etc. The more I read, the worse it gets. It looks like someone has sat down and written this out from memory, without any re-draft or anything. What percussion instruments are 'apt'??? #99 mentions the piano specifically, I see.[/quote] yeah.. that kind of thing... I've not finished it yet. And the part about multi-culturalism and the age of the congregation seems kinda sketch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Yeah, I noticed that too. The thing is, the bit about piano IS directly out of line with Church teaching, it's not just vague or slightly twisted. People are going to take this and use it to condone all sorts of 'music'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Noel's angel' post='1583247' date='Jun 25 2008, 07:28 PM']Yeah, I noticed that too. The thing is, the bit about piano IS directly out of line with Church teaching, it's not just vague or slightly twisted. People are going to take this and use it to condone all sorts of 'music'.[/quote] Piano can't be used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 "The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells, and the like" (TLS 19). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Noel's angel' post='1583303' date='Jun 25 2008, 08:44 PM']"The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells, and the like" (TLS 19).[/quote] Now that's interesting. Do you have a link to that document? I'd like to send it to my campus music minister. (Can you imagine... we have an organ and a choir loft, yet of course, the choir is up at the front and using the piano, plus guitar and the like.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) Oh dear You'll find a lot of good stuff on www.adoremus.org That particular quote was from Tra le Sollecitudini (Pope Pius X) And don't let anyone say "Oh but that's from 1903 and Vatican II changed all that." If they do, ask them where they found their information. Usually the challenge is met with silence or some mumblings about how such-and-such- a priest says it's okay etc. Edited June 25, 2008 by Noel's angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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