Did The Catholic Church Derive From Eastern Church?

[TotusTuusMaria]

I was posed with a something which I know absolutely nothing about. It is being said to me that the Catholic Church derived from the Eastern Church. That the original Church gradually organized into Five major patriarchal Sees (Peter founding two of the five, first at Antioch, then in the larger business center, Rome, in conjunction with paul). It is being said the Early Church was conciliar. How do I answer this?

[Paddington]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1577942' date='Jun 20 2008, 11:28 PM']How do I answer this?[/quote]

Probably by agreeing with everything except use of the word 'derive.'

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1578073' date='Jun 20 2008, 10:47 PM']Probably by agreeing with everything except use of the word 'derive.'[/quote]
Could you explain it to me?

[Paddington]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1578118' date='Jun 21 2008, 02:01 AM']Could you explain it to me?[/quote]

Sorry, somebody more qualified will have to do that.

[Apotheoun]

Each local Church that is headed by a validly consecrated bishop, and which celebrates the eucharistic liturgy under his supervision (cf., St. Ignatios, [i]Smyrnaeans[/i], no. 8), while professing the Orthodox faith, is the full realization of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

Edited June 22, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Guest KevinSymonds]

I also agree that the word 'derive' is incorrect.

The Church was always universal (this was a debate between Cardinals Ratzinger and Kasper a few years ago) and if you wish to become historically technical, the Church [i]spread[/i] from Jerusalem, which is in the East.

Even so, however, the fact that the Church spread from Jerusalem does not take away from the fact of the Latin (not Roman) Church's presiding over the other churches in charity. The 'presiding over' rests with the authority of St. Peter as the head of the apostolic college and St. Peter's See was Rome.

My vote is 'spread from' not 'derived from.'

-KJS

I say 'Latin' (not Roman) Church because that is the traditional term for the Church of Rome. The term 'Roman' Catholic is actually derogatory, having been coined by the Anglicans who thought themselves the 'true' Catholics. They called those in the Latin Church the 'Roman' Catholics to distinguish themselves.

[abercius24]

i agree with all previous responses. I would only like to add that the general tradition was the same in the beginning, but only became separate with the passing of time. At most, you could say the Roman Church was more Gentile-based whereas the Eastern Church was more Jewish-based, but that only holds for maybe a century at the most. In the end, two major groups emerged, East and West. But there are many segments within each (though there are less in the West than the East) that have their own tradition.

[bmb144]

I'd also delete derive and agree with the rest of what has been said. But I'd also add that primacy of the Roman See happened over a period of time, it wasn't instant and also there was some political movements that helped the See gain primacy. But derive...no!

[thessalonian]

You are in fact incorrect InHisLight and paddington. Historically the Roman See had primacy and was looked to very early on to settle disputes. Clement of Rome ordered the Corinthians to reinstate leaders whom they had ousted. Corinth was outside his territory if he was just another Bishop. This was in the late first century. There are many examples of the primacy of Rome even though the dogma was not officially declared until Vatican I. The dogma was always true even before it was declared officially.

Paddington and IHL do not represent the Catholic Church. They should not be allowed to answer in Apolgetics. They need to hang out in debate unless they have a question.

Edited July 17, 2008 by thessalonian

[Paddington]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1601769' date='Jul 17 2008, 11:32 AM']Paddington and IHL do not represent the Catholic Church. They should not be allowed to answer in Apolgetics. They need to hang out in debate unless they have a question.[/quote]

Neither of us claim to. I don't think you are always right. Are you one of the mods?

[Paddington]

No, you're not.

[thessalonian]

Apologetics is not for debate. Therefore arguements that oppose orthodox Catholicism should not be posted here as people are looking for answers and may not notice that you are not Catholic. I am stating my opinion for the mods. I believe I am allowed to do that.

[thessalonian]

One must not create a dichotomy in saying that the Church being councilar means there was not papal primacy. In Matt 16:18-19 we see peter singularly given the keys and the authority to bind and loose. In Matt 18 we see the binding and loosing given collectively to the 12 Apostles (including Peter). Those who say that the Church was 5 partriarchies ignore that quite clearly Peter, whom was clearly the leader of the 12, set up shop in Rome and that his successors held a primacy. The other 4 patriarchies have no biblical and traditional roots for their authority. They are only cultural and historical.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1601769' date='Jul 17 2008, 07:02 AM']They should not be allowed to answer in Apolgetics. They need to hang out in debate unless they have a question.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
everyone is welcome everywhere on the boards. please do not tell people where they are allowed to post in. The title for this phorum is "Transmundane Lane (serious spirituality)". it's serious discussion on spiritual topics, not necessarily apologetics. no debate is allowed here, correct, but this is part of the phorum to hash out spirituality in discussion form. thanks and God bless,

Lil Red

[Apotheoun]

No one has said anything in this thread that has not been said before by legitimate Catholic theologians.

In fact, the comments made by [i]In His Light[/i] are similar to statements that were made by Fr. Hermann Pottmeyer in a book called "The Petrine Ministry," which was edited by Walter Cardinal Kasper and published by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity.