Can One Decide To Be An Athiest?

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

I said sort of...

Those who I have met in my life who are Athiest have generally had some kind of religious upbringing and had struggles with the the teachings there, or have been unable to reconcile why there are so many religions ect. In this way I think the "decision" or recognition of one's Athiest beliefs are not necessarily a true decision as one wakes up in the morning and decides whether to eat fruity pebbles or corn flakes. it is sometimes based on misinformation false teaching ect. I have met a few people who did decide they wanted to be athiest, because life would be easier with a relativistic and utilitarianism philosphy, than a religios one, but these people I have seen struggle with their athiesm, because they are trying to willfully deny what they once believe. They are constantly trying to convince themselves that they're is not God.

I hope this made sense...

[desertwoman]

Basically everyone who I met says the same thing why they are atheist. It is due to a lack of faith. They don't have the faith to believe in God or anything else that is taught, but they have the faith to believe in science and its theories.

[TeresaBenedicta]

I think it's possible for someone to "decide" to be an atheist. All decisions are based off of somesort of matter-- experience, interpretation of data, up-bringing, etc. These factors that weigh into decisions, either explicitly or implicitly, do not negate the fact that someone is making a decision.

I made the decision to be atheist each and everyday for a good part of my life. I was presented with the question, "Do you believe in God?" and I concluded with the answer, "No, I do not."

When I was atheist, above all things, I desired truth. I sincerely believed that the truth meant that God was not real and that He was a man-made myth used to help cope with the difficulties of life. But my desire for truth was stronger than my disbelief in God. Which, believe, is why I was able to respond to God when He called out to me.

I guess I just don't understand how people can say that someone cannot decide to be an atheist?

[JustJ]

Yes, but that isn't what makes a true freethinker.

When I was much younger, I chose to be an atheist simply because I didn't want to be a Christian. I didn't really know why I was an atheist, and it was in no way convincing. I didn't believe in Christianity or any other religion, but I didn't truly know why I didn't believe those things. I had no good reasons for it. Religion was quite superficial.

Then I decided to start looking into various religions and over the course of a couple of years, I studied many of them, finally coming to rest in the RCIA class at the local Catholic church for a few months before coming into full communion, finding things to be exactly as they were before without any change, and my sense of something missing still quite unfilled.

And from there, I stopped attending the church and began to read in-depth arguments for and against atheism. It's really hard to make arguments that are really necessarily for atheism. That should be a sign: it isn't a religion, it's the null set of religious thought. The arguments [i]"for atheism"[/i] are really just arguments showing why gods and supernatual, as other religions claim, are not as claimed. Being scientifically minded, I know that the best course of action (think Occam's Razor) is not to believe the belief that raises more questions than it answers until the majority of those answers can be answered as well, because if we just start tacking on "Well this happened because God did it," it doesn't tell a thing about how it was done, and raises questions about this God character, such as, where did god come from? I know the argument of irreducible complexity is a bunch of bull, but since fundamentalists use it so much, let's use their own logic against them: There are some things that are so amazingly complex that they cannot possibly have formed through natural processes. Well, while every single example creationists have yet raised has been shown how such a thing could evolve naturally, there is an obvious example that shows this argument at work.

Well, God created everything, you say. Why, that's amazingly complex. I would posit that it's too complex to have evolved naturally, especially given that you say nothing existed before him. As such, God must have had a designer.

So, who was God's designer? (I'd be tempted to say mankind, personally, but I'm open to other suggestions.)

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='JustJ' post='1579772' date='Jun 22 2008, 07:09 PM']Being scientifically minded, I know that the best course of action (think Occam's Razor) is not to believe the belief that raises more questions than it answers until the majority of those answers can be answered as well[/quote]

From what I read in Answering the New Athiesm so far, it is pointed out that when it comes to explaining or understanding the workings of the universe, Dawkins actually raises more questions with his fervent faith in his personal god of Chance than a believer raises when they believe in a God. Much scientific reasoning (and math & probability!) is used to back this point up.

Just thought I'd point that out...

Edited June 23, 2008 by lilac_angel

[Deb]

Yes. Anyone can choose to be an atheist. Anyone can ignore that little thing deep inside themselves that says there is more to life than what I can reason there to be. Anyone can ignore the voice of God reaching out to them. Mortal sin separates everyone from God. The farther away you get from him, the less you care about believing in him. Once you have hardened your heart to the point that the Holy Spirit cannot move in you at all, becoming an atheist is very easy. But, usually deciding not to believe is not enough. Then you have to try and denounce all those who do believe because it is easier to live with no faith or hope for anything more if you can try to take everyone else into that realm of emptiness with you. . That is when you truly start to lose your soul. It does not mean you cannot be redeemed because God will love you and be with you even if you don't believe in him. He cannot stop loving his child, no matter how far away he flees from him. I am living proof of that.
I have been that one. I have been the denouncer of God and the Church. I have committed the most horrible of sins.
I was very blessed though. The Lord chose to use me as an example to all of those around me when he gave me his gift of faith. He lifted up the lowly. He came for the sinner. I didn't have to struggle with wondering anymore. I didn't have to try to understand the bible, it just became crystal clear, overnight. I didn't have to spend fifty years being a faithful Catholic without ever really knowing God in truth.
BUT..... I had to first sink into the dark depths of despair, with no hope, no dreams, no caring about even living. I had to be broken and wounded before I could let my heart be vulnerable enough to let the Lord in. He had to show me he existed. I was one that he knew would not believe without seeing. That shames me. I don't deserve anything of the graces the Lord has poured out for me. I do know that God exists and I do know that Jesus Christ resides within me and I do feel the Holy Spirit and I do know what it feels like to have your soul merge with God's. I do know that no matter what happens to me from here on in, I shall have no fear. I have tasted what waits for me beyond this world and there is NOTHING in this world that can compare. I know what complete, all encompassing Love feels like and I could live a thousand years and never be able to find the words to describe it. Our terminology of Love is so very pathetic to what Love really is. We shouldn't even be using the word.
I pray every day that every single person on this earth will be given that same gift of faith so that they can give every part of them back to the one who created them, loves them and is waiting for them. I have such hope because I know that the day will come when every knee shall bend before the Lord Jesus Christ. My prayer is that every knee shall bend out of love and reverence than out of fear.

Edited June 23, 2008 by Deb

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='Deb' post='1579876' date='Jun 22 2008, 11:46 PM']Yes. Anyone can choose to be an atheist. Anyone can ignore that little thing deep inside themselves that says there is more to life than what I can reason there to be. Anyone can ignore the voice of God reaching out to them. Mortal sin separates everyone from God. The farther away you get from him, the less you care about believing in him. Once you have hardened your heart to the point that the Holy Spirit cannot move in you at all, becoming an atheist is very easy. But, usually deciding not to believe is not enough. Then you have to try and denounce all those who do believe because it is easier to live with no faith or hope for anything more if you can try to take everyone else into that realm of emptiness with you. . That is when you truly start to lose your soul. It does not mean you cannot be redeemed because God will love you and be with you even if you don't believe in him. He cannot stop loving his child, no matter how far away he flees from him. I am living proof of that.
I have been that one. I have been the denouncer of God and the Church. I have committed the most horrible of sins.[/quote]

Ya know, I think there must be different sorts of atheism. 'Cause, for me at least, it was nothing like what you've described (although I don't doubt that such is true for some people).

Maybe it has to do with where you are before deciding to be atheist.

For me... I never believed in God before deciding to be atheist. I never had the chance to believe in God. My parents were not Christians. No one in my family ever taught me about God. I didn't even know that people believed in God until I was, what, seven years old? And to me, at least at that age, I figured being a part of a church was kind of like playing sports. Some people played soccer, some played baseball. Some didn't play at all. It didn't matter.

When I got older and had Christian friends, I began to hear the message they were sending. They taught me what they believed.

And I rejected what they believed. And when I had heard their 'side', I concluded that there still was no God.

As for trying to bring down others with you, as an atheist... sure, I'd argue against the Christians if they brought it up. I enjoyed a good debate; especially because I was good at defending my position. But, I wasn't out there to cut other people down. Because the truth of the matter is... I was jealous of my Christian friends. Jealous of everyone who had been brought up in a Christian household and 'brainwashed' to believe in this so-called God. 'Cause that meant they had something to believe in, sure, it may have been a crutch to get through life... but maybe we all need that cruch, I thought. Ignorance is bliss-- that's what I always used to say.

Funny enough, I still struggle a lot with my faith because of my atheistic background. As hard as atheism was to live with, so is living the faith a challenge. And sometimes my old arguments come back at me, and they look awfully good.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='JustJ' post='1579772' date='Jun 22 2008, 07:09 PM']Well, God created everything, you say. Why, that's amazingly complex. I would posit that it's too complex to have evolved naturally, especially given that you say nothing existed before him. As such, God must have had a designer.

So, who was God's designer? (I'd be tempted to say mankind, personally, but I'm open to other suggestions.)[/quote]

God has no designer. He is uncaused. No one believes in the pop theory correct? The universe did not spring for pure nothingness. There must be therefor something that exists which has no cause, which has always existed which all caused beings and objects where caused from. So, there is but two choices either the uncaused cause is unintelligent object such as a big rock, the universe or intelligent such as God, Christ.

I would agree the universe is amazingly complex, so much so that it would seem illogical that it could exist on chance, and not designed by an intelligence.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JustJ' post='1579772' date='Jun 22 2008, 07:09 PM']Well, God created everything, you say. Why, that's amazingly complex. I would posit that it's too complex to have evolved naturally, especially given that you say nothing existed before him. As such, God must have had a designer.

So, who was God's designer? (I'd be tempted to say mankind, personally, but I'm open to other suggestions.)[/quote]
Well then, what a wonderful paradox you have.
God created everything (that includes us) and we created God.
You can't say both! If mankid were God's 'designer' that would make and *actual* God not exist. A Creating God wouldn't exist.

[mortify]

God is absolutely simple, there are no components to put together thus there is no need for a designer.

[JustJ]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1579794' date='Jun 22 2008, 08:35 PM']From what I read in Answering the New Athiesm so far, it is pointed out that when it comes to explaining or understanding the workings of the universe, Dawkins actually raises more questions with his fervent faith in his personal god of Chance than a believer raises when they believe in a God. Much scientific reasoning (and math & probability!) is used to back this point up.

Just thought I'd point that out...[/quote]
If only there wasn't all that science to explain why reality is how it is through natural forces.

Don't fall for the creationist fallacy. A universe without a god is not purely random chance. It's a universe governed by natural forces.
[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1579947' date='Jun 23 2008, 12:13 AM']God has no designer. He is uncaused. No one believes in the pop theory correct? The universe did not spring for pure nothingness. There must be therefor something that exists which has no cause, which has always existed which all caused beings and objects where caused from. So, there is but two choices either the uncaused cause is unintelligent object such as a big rock, the universe or intelligent such as God, Christ.

I would agree the universe is amazingly complex, so much so that it would seem illogical that it could exist on chance, and not designed by an intelligence.[/quote]
So if you admit that something can happen without needing a cause, why could not the universe and all matter that exists come into existence without the need for a god?

Yes, this was a trap.
[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1579976' date='Jun 23 2008, 12:58 AM']Well then, what a wonderful paradox you have.
God created everything (that includes us) and we created God.
You can't say both! If mankid were God's 'designer' that would make and *actual* God not exist. A Creating God wouldn't exist.[/quote]
My point, exactly.
[quote name='mortify' post='1580085' date='Jun 23 2008, 09:34 AM']God is absolutely simple, there are no components to put together thus there is no need for a designer.[/quote]
He can create a race of humans, along with everything else in the universe? That seems pretty complex to me.

[TeresaBenedicta]

So where did the "natural forces" come from?

[mortify]

[quote name='JustJ' post='1580290' date='Jun 23 2008, 01:14 PM']He can create a race of humans, along with everything else in the universe? That seems pretty complex to me.[/quote]

I'm glad you recognize the complexity of life but absolute simplicity refers to God's being, not what He can do. A human being is composed of body and soul while God is not composed of any parts. That's why the former requires a designer while the Latter does not.

[JustJ]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1580295' date='Jun 23 2008, 02:19 PM']So where did the "natural forces" come from?[/quote]
They are uncaused. [img]http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/4663/e10256ql4.gif[/img]

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='JustJ' post='1580334' date='Jun 23 2008, 01:57 PM']They are uncaused. [img]http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/4663/e10256ql4.gif[/img][/quote]
Then there goes the Big Bang Theory.

Edited June 23, 2008 by Galloglasses