Clerical Celibacy

[Apotheoun]

[i]Dr. Dragani, a Byzantine Catholic theologian, has written on the topic of mandatory celibacy for priests, and here is what he said:[/i]


[b][center]A Critical Consideration of The Case for Clerical Celibacy
[i]By Anthony T. Dragani[/i][/center][/b]
Although the general populace is unaware of it, during the past decade a new effort has been underway to defend the Roman Catholic practice of mandatory priestly celibacy. Putting aside the traditional sociological arguments that we are all familiar with, these new defenders argue for the discipline based primarily on historical grounds. Although their writings have not reached a broad audience, they have found a committed following in some Catholic circles.

Normally I would not concern myself with a defense of the Roman Catholic discipline of mandatory celibacy. After all, it is their tradition and they certainly have a right to defend it. However, this new literature goes a step further and seriously questions the legitimacy of the Eastern tradition of a married priesthood. Representative of the position is The Case for Clerical Celibacy, by Cardinal Alfons Maria Stickler. This book is essentially a popularization of the claims of two other authors, distilled into a very readable format. Cardinal Stickler aims to get the word out that mandatory celibacy is the genuine discipline, and that the tradition practiced in the East is an unfortunate "innovation."

As an Eastern Catholic I am especially troubled by this claim. The history of Eastern Catholicism in North America has been marred by repeated attempts to impose mandatory celibacy upon us, always with tragic results. We have fought long and hard to affirm the legitimacy of our tradition of a married priesthood, and even now this issue is a subject of major concern and sensitivity. Therefore, the fact that an influential Cardinal has written a book that argues against the legitimacy of our tradition causes me some apprehension.

Exactly who is Cardinal Stickler? According to his biography on the book's cover he is "a member of numerous international academic organizations and academies. He has been a consultor to many Congregations of the Roman Curia, was a member of the preparatory commission for the Second Vatican Council, a peritus to three of the Council Commissions, and a member of the commission for the preparation of the new [u]Codex Iurus Canonici[/u]." These are very impressive credentials to say the least. It is something of a daunting task to critique a book written by such an accomplished churchman, but as an Eastern Catholic I am compelled to answer his charges.

The book itself is divided into four sections. Section I sets forth his premise and methodology. Section II details the history of celibacy in the Latin Church. Section III scrutinizes the Eastern tradition of married clerics, with a special emphasis on the Council in Trullo. Finally, Section IV puts forth a theology of celibacy. We will examine each section of the book in order.


[i]Click the link below to continue reading his essay:[/i]
[url="http://www.east2west.org/mandatory_clerical_celibacy.htm"]
[u][b]Clerical Celibacy[/b][/u][/url]

Edited May 7, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Guest]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1860844' date='May 7 2009, 01:21 PM'][i]Dr. Dragini, a Byzantine Catholic theologian, has written on the topic of mandatory celibacy for priests, and here is what he said:[/i]


[b][center]A Critical Consideration of The Case for Clerical Celibacy
[i]By Anthony T. Dragani[/i][/center][/b]
Although the general populace is unaware of it, during the past decade a new effort has been underway to defend the Roman Catholic practice of mandatory priestly celibacy. Putting aside the traditional sociological arguments that we are all familiar with, these new defenders argue for the discipline based primarily on historical grounds. Although their writings have not reached a broad audience, they have found a committed following in some Catholic circles.

Normally I would not concern myself with a defense of the Roman Catholic discipline of mandatory celibacy. After all, it is their tradition and they certainly have a right to defend it. However, this new literature goes a step further and seriously questions the legitimacy of the Eastern tradition of a married priesthood. Representative of the position is The Case for Clerical Celibacy, by Cardinal Alfons Maria Stickler. This book is essentially a popularization of the claims of two other authors, distilled into a very readable format. Cardinal Stickler aims to get the word out that mandatory celibacy is the genuine discipline, and that the tradition practiced in the East is an unfortunate "innovation."

As an Eastern Catholic I am especially troubled by this claim. The history of Eastern Catholicism in North America has been marred by repeated attempts to impose mandatory celibacy upon us, always with tragic results. We have fought long and hard to affirm the legitimacy of our tradition of a married priesthood, and even now this issue is a subject of major concern and sensitivity. Therefore, the fact that an influential Cardinal has written a book that argues against the legitimacy of our tradition causes me some apprehension.

Exactly who is Cardinal Stickler? According to his biography on the book's cover he is "a member of numerous international academic organizations and academies. He has been a consultor to many Congregations of the Roman Curia, was a member of the preparatory commission for the Second Vatican Council, a peritus to three of the Council Commissions, and a member of the commission for the preparation of the new [u]Codex Iurus Canonici[/u]." These are very impressive credentials to say the least. It is something of a daunting task to critique a book written by such an accomplished churchman, but as an Eastern Catholic I am compelled to answer his charges.

The book itself is divided into four sections. Section I sets forth his premise and methodology. Section II details the history of celibacy in the Latin Church. Section III scrutinizes the Eastern tradition of married clerics, with a special emphasis on the Council in Trullo. Finally, Section IV puts forth a theology of celibacy. We will examine each section of the book in order.


[i]Click the link below to continue reading his essay:[/i]

[url="http://www.east2west.org/mandatory_clerical_celibacy.htm"]
[u][b]Clerical Celibacy[/b][/u][/url][/quote]


Thank you for this. I'm about half way through it right now. It seems pretty obvious who Paul was talking about in timothy 4-1 when he said the sprit explicitly said to him in the last times some would depart from the faith and introduce false teachings and forbid marriage. So now the question is can one with good conscience still remain roman catholic or should they become a member of the eastern church ? Were still one catholic church so does it matter ?

Edited May 7, 2009 by Guest

[Guest]

Timothy 4 -1

Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions

through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences.

They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving,

for it is made holy by the invocation of God in prayer.

If you will give these instructions to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound teaching you have followed.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Guest

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1860852' date='May 7 2009, 02:37 PM']Thank you for this. I'm about half way through it right now. It seems pretty obvious who Paul was talking about in timothy 4-1 when he said the sprit explicitly said to him in the last times some would depart from the faith and introduce false teachings and forbid marriage. So now the question is can one with good conscience still remain roman catholic or should they become a member of the eastern church ? Were still one catholic church so does it matter ?[/quote]

Not to continue with the debate from earlier as we've both given our points (and in a great fashion by the way, meaning that it was friendly and good natured. Best debate I've probably been in before.) I'm just concerned about your reasoning here about the Roman Catholic Church going being corrupt because of the celibacy issue and it being a sign of the end times. You've got to be careful when studying and interpreting sacred scripture. I'd advise that you read up on solid biblical commentaries regarding those verses and look at the full context of what was going on there. Also be cautious in regards to studying the Apocalypse. I've gotten involved with some groups that prophesized about it. Besides, if the practice of priestly celibacy is a sign of the end times, the end times are taking a very long time to happen considering that this discipline has been around for so very long.

[Archaeology cat]

Yeah, if forbidding a particular person/group to marry, then the Church has been wrong from just about the beginning. Neither the Eastern or Western Rites allow someone to marry after being ordained. It's just that some rites allow a married man to be ordained. (someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that).

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1862559' date='May 9 2009, 01:33 PM']Yeah, if forbidding a particular person/group to marry, then the Church has been wrong from just about the beginning. Neither the Eastern or Western Rites allow someone to marry after being ordained. It's just that some rites allow a married man to be ordained. (someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that).[/quote]

You are correct.

Only under highly unusual circumstances will a bishop allow a permanent deacon to remarry: the only one I've heard of is if he is widowed and has young children.

[Guest]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1862518' date='May 9 2009, 03:06 AM']Not to continue with the debate from earlier as we've both given our points (and in a great fashion by the way, meaning that it was friendly and good natured. Best debate I've probably been in before.) I'm just concerned about your reasoning here about the Roman Catholic Church going being corrupt because of the celibacy issue and it being a sign of the end times. You've got to be careful when studying and interpreting sacred scripture. I'd advise that you read up on solid biblical commentaries regarding those verses and look at the full context of what was going on there. Also be cautious in regards to studying the Apocalypse. I've gotten involved with some groups that prophesized about it. Besides, if the practice of priestly celibacy is a sign of the end times, the end times are taking a very long time to happen considering that this discipline has been around for so very long.[/quote]

I see what you're saying and I think I've taken it in context. Paul doesn't write anybody off with that scripture or anything. He does make it a point to say though that the spirit explicitly says to him this will happen in the last times. And the verse right before that he is talking about bishops and how they should be married once. I think it is possible the church could be wrong on this and it could be a false teaching. And since it's not infallible docrinte I dont think it's wrong to question the issue. As far as things taking a long time to happen 2000 years is probally a snap of the fingers to God. And the "last times" have been going on since Christ was raised from the dead. I do agree though with you one has to be carefull and I rep the pope so i'm not trying to "hate" on the church or antyhing. It's just what I feel the spirit has showed me and I think the celibacy issue should really be looked at. I'm sure since I think so the church will get right on it.

Edited May 9, 2009 by Guest

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1862632' date='May 9 2009, 06:40 PM']I see what you're saying and I think I've taken it in context. Paul doesn't write anybody off with that scripture or anything. He does make it a point to say though that the spirit explicitly says to him this will happen in the last times. And the verse right before that he is talking about bishops and how they should be married once. I think it is possible the church could be wrong on this and it could be a false teaching. And since it's not infallible docrinte I dont think it's wrong to question the issue. As far as things taking a long time to happen 2000 years is probally a snap of the fingers to God. And the "last times" have been going on since Christ was raised from the dead. I do agree though with you one has to be carefull and I rep the pope so i'm not trying to "hate" on the church or antyhing. It's just what I feel the spirit has showed me and I think the celibacy issue should really be looked at. I'm sure since I think so the church will get right on it. [/quote]

Paul was also celibate himself and said this was the preferred state There's nothing wrong with questioning the practice, since it's discipline, not dogma, but I would say Paul is actually in favour of celibacy.

[Guest]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1862932' date='May 9 2009, 02:59 PM']but I would say Paul is actually in favour of celibacy.[/quote]

Ya I agree.

Edited May 9, 2009 by Guest

[srmarymichael]

Hi guys. I just found this thread!

The best explanation I have ever heard on this topic is the one by Fr. Thomas Loya. It's on this link "Theology of the Body and Celibacy". If you are seriously interested in this, get this CD.

[url="http://ourfatherswillcommunications.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc"]http://ourfatherswillcommunications.com/Me...t2/merchant.mvc[/url]?

This is a pretty big topic for me because I'm a big TOB buff. I know what chastity is for me as a Religious Sister, but I cannot speak from a man's point of view. I want to learn more about it so I know what to tell young men when they talk to me about it.

God bless you and guide you all!

[VeniteAdoremus]

I read the book "[url="http://www.aquinasandmore.com/index.cfm/title/When-God-Asks-for-An-Undivided-Heart/FuseAction/store.ItemDetails/SKU/58641/"]When God asks for an undivided heart[/url]" which Fr Andrew Apostoli of the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal adapted from his noviciate classes on the topic, and I thought it was really, really good.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1860621' date='May 7 2009, 07:50 AM']Just so we're clear, since you were mentioning bishops too earlier, even in the Eastern Catholic churches, the bishops must be celibate.....
Someone will correct me if I'm mistaken, of course, but I don't believe I am.[/quote]
The requirement that bishops be celibate is a custom, not an Apostolic tradition, and it has only been required since the end of the 7th century.

Monks, not parish priests, are celibate in the Eastern Churches.

[Apotheoun]

Below is a link to a website that describes the role of a Matushka (i.e., the wife of a priest) in an Eastern Church:

[url="http://www.st-george-pharr-tx.org/Matushka/matuska.htm"][b][u]Matushka's Page[/u][/b][/url]

[srmarymichael]

One thing that I don't see mentioned here in this thread is the very important and close connection between the 2 vocations of married life and celibacy.

All people that are celibate are really married. They have the same desires to be loved and to love. They have the same desires to be united with Someone in an intimate way. They have the same desires to be a father/mother. We are just called to live it out differently. If I didn't have that desire to be espoused and to mother, I would not know how to be intimate with God, to be His wife, or to mother His children!

This is hard to describe in a phorum, but I'm trying.

In fact, a person applying to a Monastery or a seminary or convent should be a person that wants to get married and have children and be a mother / father. Otherwise, they will not be able to fulfill their calling in a healthy way in God's family.

Does this make sense? I hope so. It's a deep mystery.

[tinytherese]

There was a discussion on this on another thread and some good points were pointed out regarding this issue on page five, particularly that "St. Paul warned about the idea of forbidding marriage to all. It is a misreading of his letters too say that he would have condemned the practices of the Roman Church, or any other sui juris Church for that matter" Apotheoun.

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=93842&st=80"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...93842&st=80[/url]

Besides, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit so that it will not fall into error. The East and the West each have their practices and I can respect that, but I don't like accusitions of error.