Clerical Celibacy

[Nihil Obstat]

He said "It is sorry."
You took that to mean "this is a sorry argument."
I believe what he actually meant was "It is [incorrect] , sorry."

Obviously still not perfectly polite, but we can forgive that.

[Guest]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1860361' date='May 7 2009, 12:17 AM']He said "It is sorry."
You took that to mean "this is a sorry argument."
I believe what he actually meant was "It is [incorrect] , sorry."

Obviously still not perfectly polite, but we can forgive that. [/quote]

nm i c what you are saying.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Guest

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1860356' date='May 7 2009, 12:14 AM']I have no idea what you are talking about with a comma ??
He said my idea was flawed and the post before he said my idea was sorry.
I'm lost with the comma thing ?[/quote]

Never mind.

Edited May 7, 2009 by tinytherese

[Guest]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1860375' date='May 7 2009, 12:25 AM']I'm thinking that perhaps the comma thing was a reference to the knight maybe having a typo in his response to you.[/quote]

well i respect koc he's a good dude. although there are many who come close to papal idolatry in the catholic church and in tune discredit other people on matters that arent infallible. mabey this isnt koc but there are these people out there. i dont have to submit to a teaching that isnt infallible nor do i have to agree with it. espially one that is strictly opposed by scripture.

[Guest]

Ok I just reread the post in the open mic and see that I am wrong. Really wrong. From the time I read "it is sorry" I took it as my idea was "sorry" Thats why I got so angry but now rereading it I see my error. Its a reminder to me to remember you have to be carefull when talking on the internet. Appologies.

[tinytherese]

Indeed it is a discipline, yet to say that a celibate priesthood is unbiblical is not accurate. As someone previously mentioned Theology of the Body talks about celibacy for the kingdom. In today's world living a chaste life is frowned upon, yet this celibate priesthood is really radical in our over sexed world. Not to mention, since a priest is an embassador of Christ and since Christ Himself took the Church as His bride giving Himself totally and completely to her even to the point of dying for her. I've heard it said that a priest wears black not to look goth (LOL) but as a symbol of dying to Himself, giving Himself completely to the Church. If He took her for instead of an earthly woman, why should a priest not do the same?

I heard it put this way, as to the argument that if we let priests marry women that more men will be interested in the priesthood, let's say that our nation wants to get more people into the military but it fears that all of the requirements for it are driving some people away from it. "Naw no more doing drills or obstacle courses. Oh I know, let's have them go through tea parties! Those are much simpler!" With the lowered requirements and the lack of training, would we want them protecting our country? The same goes for if we want to draw in more priests.

[Guest]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1860448' date='May 7 2009, 12:14 AM']Indeed it is a discipline, yet to say that a celibate priesthood is unbiblical is not accurate. As someone previously mentioned Theology of the Body talks about celibacy for the kingdom. In today's world living a chaste life is frowned upon, yet this celibate priesthood is really radical in our over sexed world. Not to mention, since a priest is an embassador of Christ and since Christ Himself took the Church as His bride giving Himself totally and completely to her even to the point of dying for her. I've heard it said that a priest wears black not to look goth (LOL) but as a symbol of dying to Himself, giving Himself completely to the Church. If He took her for instead of an earthly woman, why should a priest not do the same?

I heard it put this way, as to the argument that if we let priests marry women that more men will be interested in the priesthood, let's say that our nation wants to get more people into the military but it fears that all of the requirements for it are driving some people away from it. "Naw no more doing drills or obstacle courses. Oh I know, let's have them go through tea parties! Those are much simpler!" With the lowered requirements and the lack of training, would we want them protecting our country? The same goes for if we want to draw in more priests.[/quote]

What you say is true and I even agree with it to some extent. But it still doesnt change the fact that a married male should be denied the right to be a priest. Celibacy should be encouraged and shown the virtue in doing it but it shouldt be mandatory.

Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?
2
Although I may not be an apostle for others, certainly I am for you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3
My defense against those who would pass judgment on me to is this.
4
3 Do we not have the right to eat and drink?
5
Do we not have the right to take along a Christian wife, as do the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?


My point is like the eastern church, western men should be able to enter the priesthood with a wife. To forbid it doesnt seem right in my opinon. Espially when the church needs priest. It is my opinon though.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Guest

[Guest]

btw im reading that link you posted in the other thread. thanks.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1860469' date='May 7 2009, 01:34 AM']What you say is true and I even agree with it to some extent. But it still doesnt change the fact that a married male should be denied the right to be a priest. Celibacy should be encouraged and shown the virtue in doing it but it shouldt be mandatory.

Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?
2
Although I may not be an apostle for others, certainly I am for you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3
My defense against those who would pass judgment on me 2 is this.
4
3 Do we not have the right to eat and drink?
5
Do we not have the right to take along a Christian wife, as do the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?


My point is like the eastern church, western men should be able to enter the priesthood with a wife. To forbid it doesnt seem right in my opinon. Espially when the church needs priest. It is my opinon though.[/quote]

As previously mentioned on the thread though, being a priest is very demanding and very time consuming, so there would be this struggle of balancing ministry with family. There is still this struggle even if he is a "part time" priest, considering that some of those who were married ministers that converted to the faith that received special permission to be ordained have to have a second job puts more stress on him. Celibate priests have more time to devote to God's people this way, being more available to the parishioners apart from just saying mass. Just recently I needed to speak with the priest at the parish that I attend at the college that I'm currently at about a very important matter. If he had been married and had children it would have been harder for him to work me into his schedule to discuss it.

[Guest]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1860490' date='May 7 2009, 02:17 AM']As previously mentioned on the thread though, being a priest is very demanding and very time consuming, so there would be this struggle of balancing ministry with family. There is still this struggle even if he is a "part time" priest, considering that some of those who were married ministers that converted to the faith that received special permission to be ordained have to have a second job puts more stress on him. Celibate priests have more time to devote to God's people this way, being more available to the parishioners apart from just saying mass. Just recently I needed to speak with the priest at the parish that I attend at the college that I'm currently at about a very important matter. If he had been married and had children it would have been harder for him to work me into his schedule to discuss it.[/quote]

Ok great. (not being rude but it still shouldnt be mandatory. It isnt mandatory in the eastern church. Paul just got done saying he has the right to a wife if he wills. If he doesnt want one then fine but this privledge in the freedome of Christ should not be taken from him.

And I know some will say " but priest dont have to be priest !!!! " lol ya that's true but we need good priest. Priest should also have the luxery of not being precieved as gay men. Now I know priest arent this but that is how they are precieved by alota people. Since the teaching isnt doctrine why not change it and let some grace flow in from all areas. Let those who want to have a wife have one. Let the publics image of the priesthood be changed into something more normal. It could help some of the perscution these priest have to take being assumed their all gay and child molestors. I mean I bet there are alot of priest who wont step up just because of this. They may have no intention of marring but they dont want to have that freedome taken away from them. It would make the priest look alot better if there were married priest among the single ones. Priest deserve that.

As far as your argument about the priest wouldnt have been able to fit in to your schedule if he was married...well that sounds sorta selfish. ....I see what you are saying but at the same time I dont think it merits him not being able to be married if he so desires.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Guest

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1860493' date='May 7 2009, 02:25 AM']As far as your argument about the priest wouldnt have been able to fit in to your schedule if he was married...well that sounds sorta selfish. ....I see what you are saying but at the same time I dont think it merits him not being able to be married if he so desires.[/quote]

I don't think that you're being rude. And by the way, I contacted him before hand and asked when he would be free. I didn't just barge in saying that I needed to talk to him right then. It's just that since he didn't have a family to work around that he was more available. I've even heard of wives and children of protestant ministers that complain that they hardly ever get to see their husband or dad because of all of the work that he has to do, and being a priest requires even more time than a minister. Balancing work and family these days is hard enough without the amount of work necessary to be a priest.

Some parishes can't afford youth ministers, or someone to run R.C.I.A., etc. and they are often the ones who have to do it. Meanwhile there is marriage preparation that they often have to do, confessions to hear (including when people schedule appointments at the times not specifically designated for that,) mass at least once a day if not more than that on the weekends, preparing homilies, performing wedding ceremonies, funerals, helping to govern the parish, being called in to mediate situations in parishes if need be, giving spiritual direction if someone asks for it ( that sounds like revenge doesn't it,) administering the anointing of the sick, being asked advice by parishioners and even non-parishioners, and there are probably other things that I have left out. The point is that with a celibate priesthood they are more available to minister to God's people. Even with lay people assisting him, he still has a lot of work to do.

Bishops, archbishops, cardinals, and dun dun dun... the pope have their plates really full too. Can you picture Pope John Paul II with a wife, children, and grand children to attend to during his years as the Holy Father or Pope Benedict? I sure can't! That would be incredibly stressful on them. The amount of work that church leaders have to do is great indeed. Not to mention the great multitude of canonized male celibate saints in the Church. So many great male saints have come about in the celibate priesthood over the great many years that it has been around for and we have received so much from these radically holy heroic men.

As far as St. Paul claiming that every apostle should have a right to marry if he so chooses, we have to keep in mind that it was not the norm to be single back then. Many men were afraid that their families would be disgraced if they didn't marry. Imagine how Our Lord's family, neighbors, and friends thought when He was still celibate in His thirtiest was very unusual not to marry back then. To a certain extent that's true today as well, but this was to a much greater extent. Sure there were exceptions, but they were rare.

I've also heard of a theory which said that St. Peter, the first pope may have been a widower. I don't know if its true or not but it is possible. Think about it. When Our Lord cured his mother in law why wasn't the worried daughter ever mentioned at all? You'd think that she would at least be briefly mentioned in the description, since worried people gathered around sick or even dead people are mentioned in other accounts where Our Lord has healed people. Now there's no way to know if he was a widower or not unless we were to ask in heaven, but it is probable.

Besides, the life of an Apostle wasn't easy to say the extremely least and with the difficulties that they went through just imagine how tough it was on the Apostles that were married and had families. St. Paul appears to acknowledge how stressful it is and how much work that it required. He seems to be saying, "Well okay. Get married if you want, but I don't recommend it. It's going to be hard." The practice of celibacy hadn't been developed yet, as well as many other practices, but we can't blame um. This was the early Church and it didn't have everything figured out yet. The Church is a living and breathing thing, and with that comes growth and change. It seems as if over time the Church seemed to realize that the celibate priesthood seemed to work better than the married one.

It all comes down to love. If you ever want to know why the Roman Catholic Church does something then you can either get the short or the long version to that question. The short answer is love. Love is the root of it all for as Pope Benedict said in the title of his first encyclical "God is love." The Church decided that what was best for God's people was to have a celibate priesthood. It may end up allowing a married priesthood again but if it ever did it would take a very long time for that to happen. Only after a great deal of study and dialogue about the issue could such a change be made, but it seems as if the church favors celibacy.

[Nihil Obstat]

Just so we're clear, since you were mentioning bishops too earlier, even in the Eastern Catholic churches, the bishops must be celibate.....
Someone will correct me if I'm mistaken, of course, but I don't believe I am.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1860520' date='May 7 2009, 09:01 AM']As far as St. Paul claiming that every apostle should have a right to marry if he so chooses, we have to keep in mind that it was not the norm to be single back then. Many men were afraid that their families would be disgraced if they didn't marry. Imagine how Our Lord's family, neighbors, and friends thought when He was still celibate in His thirtiest was very unusual not to marry back then. To a certain extent that's true today as well, but this was to a much greater extent. Sure there were exceptions, but they were rare.[/quote]
If I'm not mistaken (which it's possible that I am), at one point in the Roman Empire it was actually illegal for a Roman citizen to not marry, as the number of citizens was greatly outnumbered by the number of subjects the more they expanded. The exception to that rule was the Vestal Virgins.

[Guest]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1860520' date='May 7 2009, 03:01 AM']I don't think that you're being rude. And by the way, I contacted him before hand and asked when he would be free. I didn't just barge in saying that I needed to talk to him right then. It's just that since he didn't have a family to work around that he was more available. I've even heard of wives and children of protestant ministers that complain that they hardly ever get to see their husband or dad because of all of the work that he has to do, and being a priest requires even more time than a minister. Balancing work and family these days is hard enough without the amount of work necessary to be a priest.

Some parishes can't afford youth ministers, or someone to run R.C.I.A., etc. and they are often the ones who have to do it. Meanwhile there is marriage preparation that they often have to do, confessions to hear (including when people schedule appointments at the times not specifically designated for that,) mass at least once a day if not more than that on the weekends, preparing homilies, performing wedding ceremonies, funerals, helping to govern the parish, being called in to mediate situations in parishes if need be, giving spiritual direction if someone asks for it ( that sounds like revenge doesn't it,) administering the anointing of the sick, being asked advice by parishioners and even non-parishioners, and there are probably other things that I have left out. The point is that with a celibate priesthood they are more available to minister to God's people. Even with lay people assisting him, he still has a lot of work to do.

Bishops, archbishops, cardinals, and dun dun dun... the pope have their plates really full too. Can you picture Pope John Paul II with a wife, children, and grand children to attend to during his years as the Holy Father or Pope Benedict? I sure can't! That would be incredibly stressful on them. The amount of work that church leaders have to do is great indeed. Not to mention the great multitude of canonized male celibate saints in the Church. So many great male saints have come about in the celibate priesthood over the great many years that it has been around for and we have received so much from these radically holy heroic men.

As far as St. Paul claiming that every apostle should have a right to marry if he so chooses, we have to keep in mind that it was not the norm to be single back then. Many men were afraid that their families would be disgraced if they didn't marry. Imagine how Our Lord's family, neighbors, and friends thought when He was still celibate in His thirtiest was very unusual not to marry back then. To a certain extent that's true today as well, but this was to a much greater extent. Sure there were exceptions, but they were rare.

I've also heard of a theory which said that St. Peter, the first pope may have been a widower. I don't know if its true or not but it is possible. Think about it. When Our Lord cured his mother in law why wasn't the worried daughter ever mentioned at all? You'd think that she would at least be briefly mentioned in the description, since worried people gathered around sick or even dead people are mentioned in other accounts where Our Lord has healed people. Now there's no way to know if he was a widower or not unless we were to ask in heaven, but it is probable.

Besides, the life of an Apostle wasn't easy to say the extremely least and with the difficulties that they went through just imagine how tough it was on the Apostles that were married and had families. St. Paul appears to acknowledge how stressful it is and how much work that it required. He seems to be saying, "Well okay. Get married if you want, but I don't recommend it. It's going to be hard." The practice of celibacy hadn't been developed yet, as well as many other practices, but we can't blame um. This was the early Church and it didn't have everything figured out yet. The Church is a living and breathing thing, and with that comes growth and change. It seems as if over time the Church seemed to realize that the celibate priesthood seemed to work better than the married one.

It all comes down to love. If you ever want to know why the Roman Catholic Church does something then you can either get the short or the long version to that question. The short answer is love. Love is the root of it all for as Pope Benedict said in the title of his first encyclical "God is love." The Church decided that what was best for God's people was to have a celibate priesthood. It may end up allowing a married priesthood again but if it ever did it would take a very long time for that to happen. Only after a great deal of study and dialogue about the issue could such a change be made, but it seems as if the church favors celibacy.[/quote]

You make really good points. Not enough to change my mind but none the less very good points. Godbless.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Guest

[Archaeology cat]

I've not read all of [url="http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/mcgovern/celhist1.html"]this link[/url], but what I have read is good. Sorry if it's already been posted - I didn't see it, but could have missed it. What I've read thus far, though, brings up the point that if a married man was ordained he was expected to live in continence from the time of his ordination (and thus needed the OK from his wife). Interesting.