Stay The Course?

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]Recent reports have suggested that the Iraqi government is financially capable of taking the lead on reconstruction projects, but unwilling to do so as long as the U.S. continues its open-ended commitment. Senator Carl Levin recently reported to the Senate Armed Services Committee:

“During my recent trip to Iraq, just before the latest outbreak of violence, a senior U.S. military officer told me that when he asked an Iraqi official, ‘Why is it that we’re using our U.S. dollars to pay your people to clean up your towns instead of you using your funds?’, the Iraqi replied, ‘As long as you are willing to pay for the clean-up, why should we do it?’”

Senator Levin also noted that “Iraq now has tens of billions of dollars in surplus funds in their banks and in accounts around the world, including about $30 billion in U.S. banks.”

And the New York Times recently reported on a Pentagon audit showing that $8.2 billion in taxpayer funds were spent with “a lack of accountability notable even by the shaky standards detailed in earlier examinations of contracting in Iraq.”[/quote]

i wonder if the reason we don't leave isn't so much bc of iraq crumbing in chaos etc, what with thier police etc.... but that maybe the US wants to ensure it's built according to its plan etc.
or else... why else do people want to stay the course? (if their reason isn't to avoid choas?)

this is just one more example, of how decisions of whether to stay or leave, is dependant on facts etc... not gut speak, and genearlities like "if we stay iraq will be in chaos, as we draw terror" "if we leave iraq will be in chaos" (i think the former one though isn't as strong today as it was before, to the liberals' disproof)

[CatherineM]

I still believe that no matter how long we stay, there will be chaos when we leave. We aren't preventing a civil war, we are just temporarily delaying it.

[iggyjoan]

I don't really know a whole lot about this war, but I think if you start something you should always finish it.

[kujo]

Not surprised....we need to get out of there....

[Alycin]

[quote name='iggyjoan' post='1575481' date='Jun 18 2008, 08:32 PM']I don't really know a whole lot about this war, but I think if you start something you should always finish it.[/quote]


No offense, but that's just about the worst possible logic to try to use.

I could give you TONS of examples of things that one could start, that should not be finished.

[dominicansoul]

We need ALL our troops home. And I say put up fences on our borders, cut trade with foreign countries, produce our own goods, use our own natural resources and become self-sufficient. Let's isolate ourselves from the rest of the world. Let's deal with our own domestic problems and solve them, and make that our top priority. Let the rest of the world mind their own problems...

[Maggyie]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1575622' date='Jun 18 2008, 11:56 PM']We need ALL our troops home. And I say put up fences on our borders, cut trade with foreign countries, produce our own goods, use our own natural resources and become self-sufficient. Let's isolate ourselves from the rest of the world. Let's deal with our own domestic problems and solve them, and make that our top priority. Let the rest of the world mind their own problems...[/quote]

I understand how you feel, but isolationism is no longer a viable policy choice. Globalization is an unstoppable phenomenon and the key is to deal with it in an effective way. Historically speaking isolationism has had fairly negative results both for the isolating country and the rest of the world, see the history of China.

[kujo]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1575622' date='Jun 18 2008, 11:56 PM']We need ALL our troops home. And I say put up fences on our borders, cut trade with foreign countries, produce our own goods, use our own natural resources and become self-sufficient. Let's isolate ourselves from the rest of the world. Let's deal with our own domestic problems and solve them, and make that our top priority. Let the rest of the world mind their own problems...[/quote]

There's no way that you could be serious.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1575616' date='Jun 18 2008, 09:44 PM']No offense, but that's just about the worst possible logic to try to use.

I could give you TONS of examples of things that one could start, that should not be finished.[/quote]

I look at the issue that like a man who has a child with a woman, he can just leave when times get ruff. We now have a duty to the Iraqi people if we are an honorable country we will only leave when the job, our job is done.

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1576467' date='Jun 19 2008, 07:55 PM']I look at the issue that like a man who has a child with a woman, he can just leave when times get ruff. We now have a duty to the Iraqi people if we are an honorable country we will only leave when the job, our job is done.[/quote]

The analogy you used doesn't really hold weight IMHO because I think we forced our way in there, regardless of whether or not the Iraqi people were ready for self-government. Perhaps your analogy could be clarified to be a man who has a child with a minor. And, while I respect your general point of view here, I must ask for your definition of the job being "done" is.

[Alycin]

KoC, I wasn't arguing whether or not I think we should pull out right this minute or not, I was pointing out a faulty argument that people use all too often without actually thinking about what they are saying.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='kujo' post='1576474' date='Jun 19 2008, 06:00 PM']The analogy you used doesn't really hold weight IMHO because I think we forced our way in there, regardless of whether or not the Iraqi people were ready for self-government. Perhaps your analogy could be clarified to be a man who has a child with a minor. And, while I respect your general point of view here, I must ask for your definition of the job being "done" is.[/quote]

The ability for them to self government and protect their people and not surcome to the governments or Iran and Syria which are bombing them and our troops presently.

[quote name='Alycin' post='1576561' date='Jun 19 2008, 06:41 PM']KoC, I wasn't arguing whether or not I think we should pull out right this minute or not, I was pointing out a faulty argument that people use all too often without actually thinking about what they are saying.[/quote]

Ok

Edited June 19, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1576571' date='Jun 19 2008, 08:45 PM']The ability for them to self government and protect their people and not surcome to the governments or Iran and Syria which are bombing them and our troops presently.[/quote]

Okay. And what if those goals aren't able to be achieved? How far will we go and how many lives will be lost in this pursuit?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='kujo' post='1576578' date='Jun 19 2008, 06:46 PM']Okay. And what if those goals aren't able to be achieved? How far will we go and how many lives will be lost in this pursuit?[/quote]

Well if there are not able to be achieved then its all been a waste of time, and every life lost has died for nothing. I do not believe that to be the case, there is a great possibility of success. Our troops have made great successes, and continue too do so, I believe in them. The doubts of the Media and citizens in the US of the ability to win the peace in Iraq effects negativity the morale of the troops.

All this negativity places great doubts in my mind that we would be able to win or last that long in a world war. Such as if we the generation now were to take the place of our grandfathers generation. I believe there would be a great chance American would have lost WWII because America's generation today has lost her will to 'stay the course' and only focuses on the negative.

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1576612' date='Jun 19 2008, 09:07 PM']Well if there are not able to be achieved then its all been a waste of time, and every life lost has died for nothing. I do not believe that to be the case, there is a great possibility of success. Our troops have made great successes, and continue too do so, I believe in them. The doubts of the Media and citizens in the US of the ability to win the peace in Iraq effects negativity the morale of the troops.

All this negativity places great doubts in my mind that we would be able to win or last that long in a world war. Such as if we the generation now were to take the place of our grandfathers generation. I believe there would be a great chance American would have lost WWII because America's generation today has lost her will to 'stay the course' and only focuses on the negative.[/quote]

Your first point over-generalizes. I don't believe that something that doesn't work out constitutes a "waste of time." I once asked out the head cheerleader in high school. She said no but I walked away feeling very confident, knowing that I did something a lot of people were too scared to do. It wasn't a waste of time.

I also think that it is quite stifling to insinuate that we shouldn't discuss the merits and potential for long-term success of our mission in Iraq. Our troops have performed admirably in a problem which simply cannot be solved. I think it's like placing your 10 fingers in 10 holes in the Hoover Dam. Once that water starts going, the crumbling of the whole thing is inevitable.

Finally, your last paragraph is spot on. No arguments. Just applause.