lilac_angel Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) [quote name='JustJ' post='1582447' date='Jun 24 2008, 10:42 PM']I didn't address either satisfactorily because I have no good answers for them at this time aside from what I've already said. And if you limit your god to a world outside of science and natural law, then I am afraid that I will not agree with your god hypothesis without some other kind of proof that this is even possible.[/quote] *nods at Alycin* God isn't limited to a world outside of science and natural law. God by definition isn't limited, period. But we are, and we can't pretend to confine Him inside our narrow scientific definitions, either, since we created those definitions. Man created science to attempt to understand natural laws, not to understand God. Edited June 25, 2008 by lilac_angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) [quote name='JustJ' post='1582473' date='Jun 24 2008, 10:58 PM']Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. God has no scientific proof, as you will admit. Since I am not ready to accept spiritual arguments on faith, you need to show me some sort of proof that something like that can even work. Really. Is it so much to ask that I be shown reason to believe? God's miracles that don't come with a proof of ownership will be overlooked; that is to say, if it doesn't actually suggest god, and more specifically, god as catholicism paints him, why should I believe in your specific god?[/quote] If you overlook things like incorruptibility and Eucharistic miracles (which I personally don't), then maybe not. But those miracles mentioned did specifically suggest God as Catholicism specifically paints Him. To a T. There are even occurrences during posessions and exorcisms that clearly suggest Satan's presence. Superhuman strength, levitations, the people having knowledge of things they would have no way of knowing, speaking foreign tongues despite being uneducated, all while proclaiming that they are indeed demonic or Satan, hating God, fearing Mary... all you have to do is read nonfiction accounts of unexplained phenomenon (top Vatican exorcist Gabriel Amorth has exorcised thousands of people), add them up, and realize that the Catholic-affirming miracles are overwhelming in number and supernatural magnitude, and do the math in your head. I already said that you would be shown reason to believe if you gave it a fair chance and gave it time. If you put no effort into at least trying to have some faith to begin with, well, it's going to be very hard to see any evidence even if it did come to you. With a persistent belief in the nonexistence of God, you can continue to dismiss everything He tries to show you, in the face of His evidence. "Delusional" thinking can work both ways, though I won't be so uncharitable as to suggest that you are or will become delusional. Edited June 25, 2008 by lilac_angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) [quote name='JustJ' post='1582473' date='Jun 24 2008, 11:58 PM']Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. God has no scientific proof, as you will admit. Since I am not ready to accept spiritual arguments on faith, you need to show me some sort of proof that something like that can even work. Really. Is it so much to ask that I be shown reason to believe? God's miracles that don't come with a proof of ownership will be overlooked; that is to say, if it doesn't actually suggest god, and more specifically, god as catholicism paints him, why should I believe in your specific god?[/quote] You'll notice that I haven't been debating with you here. I am not asking you to believe what I believe. I am asking you not to call me delusional because I have evidence that God has not graced you with YET. I think that's fair. Edited June 25, 2008 by Alycin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1582497' date='Jun 24 2008, 11:10 PM']I already said that you would be shown reason to believe if you gave it a fair chance and gave it time. If you put no effort into at least trying to have some faith to begin with, well, it's going to be very hard to see any evidence even if it did come to you. With a persistent belief in the nonexistence of God, you can continue to dismiss everything He tries to show you, in the face of His evidence. "Delusional" thinking can work both ways, though I won't be so uncharitable as to suggest that you are or will become delusional.[/quote] To some extent, a lot of atheists (I don't know if you want to include yourself or not) try very hard not to believe. They don't want to see what we see. Why? I don't know, I suppose there's lots of reasons. That's a seperate topic. There is evidence around, you just have to let yourself see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Just so yall know, J has tried before to have faith, he even went through RCIA and was a practicing Catholic for a little while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1582508' date='Jun 24 2008, 11:20 PM']Just so yall know, J has tried before to have faith, he even went through RCIA and was a practicing Catholic for a little while.[/quote] To quote myself... [quote]I don't know if you want to include yourself or not[/quote] I pay attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJ Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1582514' date='Jun 25 2008, 12:25 AM']To quote myself... I pay attention. [/quote] her pointing it out could be to the benefit of other who do not pay such close attention! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Alycin' post='1582508' date='Jun 24 2008, 11:20 PM']Just so yall know, J has tried before to have faith, he even went through RCIA and was a practicing Catholic for a little while.[/quote] I was raised a cradle Catholic and went to Catholic grade school, high school, and part of Catholic college (til I transferred to Pitt) and for the most part had been lukewarm in faith at best most of that time, though I thought I was more faithful than I really was. It was only when my faith was really tested did I realize just how weak my faith was. Remember, God said that if we are lukewarm, he will spit us out of His mouth. If we read his message and choose to have faith, we have to live by His commands in their entirety to call ourselves true followers and hope to progress in faith. Otherwise it is quite easy to become discouraged - I still do, on a daily basis, to be honest - but they're largely emotional reasons and they're not reasons that are logical. But I'm noticing that as long as I perservere, I am still given no good reason to stop perservering. On the contrary. Sometimes I barely make it to the end of the day and continue to want to do His will. But again, it's not for logical reasons. I may be attached to a certain sinful thought or my anxiety will creep up, making something seem to be a problem when it really isn't a case against God by any means. Some days I feel almost ready to give up. And back when I was Catholic but often in a state of mortal sin, I did give up. I'd ignore God for a while. Then I started wondering if He was even there. It was only when I took my faith completely seriously and put God before [u]anything else[/u] in my life did I see more evidence and reasons to believe, and this strengthened not only my faith but my personhood. For example, I spent most of my life with social anxiety, and faith has given me some much needed confidence in myself, and I don't fear people as much anymore. Believe me, in today's world, it is difficult to have faith, and I know that. But it's certainly worth a try, because it's pretty easy to see that the world doesn't have a lot of great alternatives and never had. Edited June 25, 2008 by lilac_angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='JustJ' post='1582519' date='Jun 24 2008, 11:30 PM']her pointing it out could be to the benefit of other who do not pay such close attention![/quote] I was aware that you tried to have faith before. Hence my previous post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Losing faith seems to be a vicious circle, while having a strong faith is the opposite. It just takes that extra push, something that means something to you, to give you that chance to see faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1582540' date='Jun 24 2008, 11:40 PM']Losing faith seems to be a vicious circle, while having a strong faith is the opposite. It just takes that extra push, something that means something to you, to give you that chance to see faith.[/quote] Yes. When I had little or no faith, I was always trapped in vicious circles. Now that I'm actually beginning to progress in faith, I feel like my life is moving forward. I feel myself being freed from previous vicious circles that got me nowhere and were, in fact, destructive. Sin is becoming less and less appealing to me. Wordly things are becoming less and less appealing. I am more content and less tempted by things that used to tempt me, though not immune to the human conditions of discouragement. Something is keeping me going, and it's certainly not my own nature. Edited June 25, 2008 by lilac_angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Uh oh. I see this leading to the "faith is a crutch" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1582545' date='Jun 24 2008, 11:47 PM']Uh oh. I see this leading to the "faith is a crutch" argument.[/quote] Humans are imperfect and in need of faith. Call it what you will; we are nothing without God. It's not a simple convenient way of making things work out; that's just a side effect of having faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1582545' date='Jun 24 2008, 11:47 PM']Uh oh. I see this leading to the "faith is a crutch" argument.[/quote] People with broken bones need crutches. Bad analogy though, broken bones heal. Faith is your legs. Sometimes you break a leg. It takes help to get through that. If you exercise though, granted it can be hard, and painful, but your legs are stronger, and you're going to be a healthier person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1582543' date='Jun 25 2008, 12:44 AM']Yes. When I had little or no faith, I was always trapped in vicious circles. Now that I'm actually beginning to progress in faith, I feel like my life is moving forward. I feel myself being freed from previous vicious circles that got me nowhere and were, in fact, destructive. Sin is becoming less and less appealing to me. Wordly things are becoming less and less appealing. I am more content and less tempted by things that used to tempt me, though not immune to the human conditions of discouragement. Something is keeping me going, and it's certainly not my own nature. [/quote] me too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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