The Bible

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1574150' date='Jun 17 2008, 06:06 PM']I'm an athiest so I don't have to worry about who founded me![/quote]

I think that was your parents approxamately 9 months before your birthday...

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='reyb' post='1579169' date='Jun 22 2008, 05:09 AM']---------------
[indent]May I know in Church history, if there is any other group of Christians before and after the time of Constantine that is not Catholic? [/indent][/quote]

You mean asides from a Plethora of heretics that split from the teachings of the early Church? Such as the Gnostics?
Why are you so interested in finding every possible way to undermine the Church's claim to legitimacy?

[reyb]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1579183' date='Jun 22 2008, 08:11 AM']You mean asides from a Plethora of heretics that split from the teachings of the early Church? Such as the Gnostics?
Why are you so interested in finding every possible way to undermine the Church's claim to legitimacy?[/quote]

[indent]It is not my intention. Yes, I do not accept the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church but it does not mean, I hate or condemn the Catholics. As it is written in 2 Tim 4:2

[indent][color="#FF0000"]2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct , rebuke and encourage — with great patience and careful instruction. [/color][/indent]

Now, if you think I am wrong in whatever I posted here. You must correct me because it is an apostle’s instruction to all of us. Do it and I will accept it as a sign of love but, please ‘correct, rebuke and encourage me with great patience and careful instruction.’
----------------------
So Gnostics are Christian too. Is there any tradition regarding the reason why they did not become part of Catholic Church? Is it the Catholic Church who does not accept them or is it the Gnostic who do not want to be one with the Catholic Church?[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1579183' date='Jun 22 2008, 08:11 AM']You mean asides from a Plethora of heretics [b]that split [/b]from the teachings of the early Church? Such as the Gnostics?
Why are you so interested in finding every possible way to undermine the Church's claim to legitimacy?[/quote]

[indent]I think I miss something. You said 'that split'. Do you mean, Gnostic too become one with catholics? (before they separated) Or they never become 'catholic'.[/indent]

[Galloglasses]

No, the Gnostics took the teachings of the Early Church and intermixed them with the Paganism of the time. The Arian Heresy which sprouted in the Germanic Tribes sometime in the Dark Ages is an example of such Gnostic Heresy at work. They rejected the Authority of the Early Church and decided to take matters into their own hands and use Christian doctrine in accordance with their consciences alone. No wonder those heresies ended up being so dramatically different from Christianity. The Dominism come to mind also.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

[quote name='reyb' post='1579202' date='Jun 22 2008, 09:19 AM'][indent]It is not my intention. Yes, I do not accept the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church but it does not mean, I hate or condemn the Catholics. As it is written in 2 Tim 4:2

[indent][color="#FF0000"]2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct , rebuke and encourage — with great patience and careful instruction. [/color][/indent]

Now, if you think I am wrong in whatever I posted here. You must correct me because it is an apostle’s instruction to all of us. Do it and I will accept it as a sign of love but, please ‘correct, rebuke and encourage me with great patience and careful instruction.’[/quote]

Do you realize that Timothy was a letter from Paul to TIMOTHY? Timothy was a Bishop, so the idea of rebuke encouragement ect. In regards to teaching the faith is refering to the Apostolic Leadership, not ALL Christians are required to teach the faith. For those who do teach it is good to take heed these words.

[reyb]

[quote name='PadrePioOfPietrelcino' post='1579319' date='Jun 22 2008, 01:28 PM']Do you realize that Timothy was a letter from Paul to TIMOTHY? Timothy was a Bishop, so the idea of rebuke encouragement ect. In regards to teaching the faith is refering to the Apostolic Leadership, not ALL Christians are required to teach the faith. For those who do teach it is good to take heed these words.[/quote]
Of course I know it. This is the reason why I said 'If you think I am wrong - Correct me. Teach me.'

[reyb]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1579236' date='Jun 22 2008, 10:25 AM']No, the Gnostics took the teachings of the Early Church and intermixed them with the Paganism of the time. The Arian Heresy which sprouted in the Germanic Tribes sometime in the Dark Ages is an example of such Gnostic Heresy at work. They rejected the Authority of the Early Church and decided to take matters into their own hands and use Christian doctrine in accordance with their consciences alone. No wonder those heresies ended up being so dramatically different from Christianity. The Dominism come to mind also.[/quote]

[quote][indent]The gnostics wrote false gospels containing "secret teachings" of Jesus, and to authenticate them they gave them titles like, "the Gospel of Thomas" or "gospel of Mary." St Ireneus argued that if there had indeed been secret teachings of Jesus the Apostles and their successors would be aware of them. Since Sacred Tradition is absent of the secret teachings, and since gnostics had no direct connection to the Apostles, it's clear they were spreading falsehoods they conjured themselves. ([post="1443711"]from mortify in Sacred Tradition[/post]).[/indent][/quote]
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[indent]If the above info is correct and true then, it seems Gnostics are Chrisitians but the Roman Catholic Church did not accept them.[/indent]

[Galloglasses]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Gnostics are Christians, heh. No seriously, Gnosticism is basically Paganism guised as Christianity. they weren't really Christians as much as they were. What part of [b]them[/b] rejecting [b]The Church[/b] makes them Christians the Church didn't accept?

They went ahead the heresy, they didn't want the truth. The wanted the Truth according to them.

[Deb]

You have to realize that there were no written books that the Apostles were carrying around with them. They were being told where to go and what to say, by the Holy Spirit. The teachings of the disciples and the apostles were hand written and copied and given to other apostles to preach the truth of the Word, which is Christ. Those along with the letters are what finally came to make up the New Testatment.

Other writings of that time were discarded if they did not attest to the word of God. If they disputed or renounced the teachings of Christ, they were of course not included in the bible. So, yes, the Church as it was, The Catholic Church assembled the bible but, they did not write the bible. The bible was written by those were divinely inspired by God to write these things down.

There were many out there who expected the followers of Jesus to fall away once he was murdered. There were those who were of the devil who worked very hard to discredit the Lord and to change the minds and hearts of those who were the budding Christians. It is a testament to the divinity of the Word of God and to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that so many came to believe and to lay down their lives for their beliefs. The written word of these people are what ended up in the bible and they, with the power of God, has kept the one true church strong and will do until the end of time.

[reyb]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1580094' date='Jun 23 2008, 09:54 AM']AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Gnostics are Christians, heh. No seriously, Gnosticism is basically Paganism guised as Christianity. they weren't really Christians as much as they were. What part of [b]them[/b] rejecting [b]The Church[/b] makes them Christians the Church didn't accept?

They went ahead the heresy, they didn't want the truth. The wanted the Truth according to them.[/quote]

[indent]If Gnostics are not Christians why then Marcion, a Gnostic established a "canon" of the Pauline epistles (see [url="http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html)"]http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html)[/url].[/indent]

Edited June 24, 2008 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Deb' post='1580150' date='Jun 23 2008, 11:08 AM']Other writings of that time were discarded if they did not attest to the word of God. If they disputed or renounced the teachings of Christ, they were of course not included in the bible. So, yes, the Church as it was, The Catholic Church assembled the bible but, they did not write the bible. The bible was written by those were divinely inspired by God to write these things down.[/quote]

[indent]But who decided that these 'other' writings must be discarded?[/indent]

[Galloglasses]

The Church. Y'know, the vast majority of Christian a millenium before the Reformation?

[reyb]

[indent]So, Gnostics are Christians or called themselves Christians but other group of Christians did not accept them because as you have said of 'heresy' according to your early church father. Why they branded this group of Gnostics 'believer of lies' or' believer of heresy'? Do you have any idea why?[/indent]

[Galloglasses]

Because they WERE lies.

ALL of your arguements are based on the concept that God is only an Idea and has no interection with People, hence why you are trying to argue that the Churches are relative, (don't lie to me here, according to all of your topics, this is [i]exactly[/i] what you've been trying to get at), I don't know what your own beliefs about God are, but I can tell you this, neither He, nor His truth are relative. They are Objective. In accordance with that, those who stray from the truth are believers of lies. Those who teach these lies become heretics.