Norseman82 Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 [quote name='Noel's angel' post='1571867' date='Jun 15 2008, 02:35 PM']Gosh, Norseman, it's a good thing you've never sinned....oh, wait.[/quote] Cut the sarcasm. It doesn't belong in a conversation in which I'm trying to be logical. [quote name='Noel's angel' post='1571867' date='Jun 15 2008, 02:35 PM']How would you like it if someone wouldn't marry you because of a sin you committed in the past, which you deeply regretted?[/quote] Then we would not be compatible and I would deserve it. That's the consequence of my actions. If I were a fornicator I would feel uilty if I were to cheat a virgin by not giving her the same 100% that she would be giving me, aas well as possibly causing her pain in the future (per my point about spouses who feel cheated), and I would feel that I would be robbing a male virgin of someone who would be giving her that 100%. Again, it's not just about me being cheated, it's about who I would be cheating by rewarding someone who does not obey the rules over someone who does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 [quote name='Noel's angel' post='1571880' date='Jun 15 2008, 02:41 PM'] Norseman?[/quote] What does that have to do with anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 (edited) [quote name='rachael' post='1571882' date='Jun 15 2008, 02:44 PM']No, it is about forgiveness.[/quote] As I said before, you can forgive without entering into or cvontinuing a relationship with someone. [quote name='rachael' post='1571882' date='Jun 15 2008, 02:44 PM']If someone you loved deeply didn't want to marry you because of a mistake you thought you made up for, you're saying you would alright with that?[/quote] It appears that I answered that question by responding to another post while you were typing this. If I knew that this could cause her pain, love would demand that I accept her decision to not want to enter into a life of pain. Edited June 15, 2008 by Norseman82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bus Station Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1571864' date='Jun 15 2008, 01:32 PM']I know for a fact that many women enter religious life and are not virgins. They have made horrible mistakes in the past, and some of them weren't even into religion and experienced a conversion before entering religious life. If Jesus marries non-virgins, who am I to reject a man who isn't a virgin? I am marrying Jesus though....so....I don't have to really worry too much about this question... [/quote] Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 (edited) [quote name='XIX' post='1571885' date='Jun 15 2008, 02:46 PM']LOL. Good luck finding someone who doesn't have a history of breaking the sixth commandment. [/quote] I find your sarcasm and "" to be very disturbing. This is not something to be laughed at. Instead of condemning people who are seeking compatible in this area, should we not be backing them up? Edited June 15, 2008 by Norseman82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 [quote name='Norseman82' post='1571904' date='Jun 15 2008, 02:54 PM']Instead of condemning people who are seeking compatible in this area, should we not be backing them up?[/quote] I don't think most people would object if you just said that you want to marry someone who has not fallen in the past. But you seem to be looking down on others who have different expectations for a spouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1571796' date='Jun 15 2008, 01:13 PM']i thin an interesting idea is... would you marry a former murderer? what if former mass murderer? then discuss how this would be the same or not as marrying a former virgin.[/quote] I'd like to carry this analogy further. To St. Colette, Rachel, and all the others who have the "he's forgiven, it's all in the past, look at the person at who they are now" attitude: If I were to operate a babysitting or child care service, would you acceot a repentatnt pedophile as your child's babysitter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 (edited) Well, I'm already married. And I am glad that we were both virgins, but had he not been, due to making a mistake in his past but having repented, then I think it would have been okay. Yes, I'm sure I would have been upset at first, but I wouldn't hold that mistake against him. [quote name='Norseman82' post='1571858' date='Jun 15 2008, 07:28 PM']At the end of the day, it is [i]your discretionary power[/i] and free will that God has given you and how [i]you[/i] use it to reward someone by marrying them that determines whom you marry. If I were to use my discretionary power to choose a non-virgin over a virgin, that would be a slap in the face to the virgin by telling her, "sorry, I'm valuing and rewarding someone who does not obey the rules over someone who does. All your efforts were a waste."[/quote] A couple of things. One, you don't reward someone by marrying them - I doubt you mean it come across this way, but that wording can come across as being condescending, that your wife should feel you are giving her a treat by marrying her. Marriage is about giving all of who you are to your spouse - mistakes and all. I also don't see how marrying a non-virgin (here I am assuming this is someone who made a mistake in the past, regrets not waiting, and has lived chastely since that time) would be a "slap in the face" to a virgin. It does not devalue her decision to wait at all, because you are not condoning premarital sex. If the other girl was not a virgin and regrets it, then she obviously has come to see the wisdom of waiting, and she can help others to see that wisdom as well, by teaching people from her mistake. It is not something to hold against her if she has repented. Now, I can understand if she had an STD, but if she didn't, then I see no problem with marriage. ETA: I'm also not saying one should have lower standards, just that if the person you fall for happens to have made a mistake years ago, that should not be held against them if they have truly changed. [quote name='rachael' post='1571882' date='Jun 15 2008, 07:44 PM']No, it is about forgiveness. People make mistakes and sin. If someone you loved deeply didn't want to marry you because of a mistake you thought you made up for, you're saying you would alright with that?[/quote] I very much agree with you, rachael. Edited June 15, 2008 by Archaeology cat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 [quote name='Era Might' post='1571906' date='Jun 15 2008, 02:58 PM']I don't think most people would object if you just said that you want to marry someone who has not fallen in the past. But you seem to be looking down on others who have different expectations for a spouse.[/quote] But isn't what is hapening here is that others are looking down on me over my expectation for a spouse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1571911' date='Jun 15 2008, 03:03 PM']ETA: I'm also not saying one should have lower standards, just that if the person you fall for happens to have made a mistake years ago, that should not be held against them if they have truly changed.[/quote] It still does not make someone compatible. [quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1571911' date='Jun 15 2008, 03:03 PM']One, you don't reward someone by marrying them[/quote] On the contrary - practically every decision we make where other people are involved ends up rewarding someone and penalizing another. Edited June 15, 2008 by Norseman82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 [quote name='Norseman82' post='1571876' date='Jun 15 2008, 03:39 PM']I never said that non-virgins are not free to marry. They are compatible with fellow non-virgins.[/quote] That's ridiculous. So I suppose we should just neatly catorgize people into groups and tell them that they aren't compatible to marry outside their group? Who are you to define compatibility? A virgin is just as much a sinner as a non-virgin. Both are sinners. There's some compatibility for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 [quote name='Era Might' post='1571906' date='Jun 15 2008, 02:58 PM']I don't think most people would object if you just said that you want to marry someone who has not fallen in the past. But you seem to be looking down on others who have different expectations for a spouse.[/quote] I agree with that. Norseman, I apologize for the sarcasm. I personally think that a turnaround from a life of sleeping around is a lot more believable than a pedophile turning around. Plus, there are enough babysitters around that there's no reason to hire an ex-pedo (even one you actually trust). So that's really not an apples to apples comparision. And I still can't really comprehend how in the world having past sins would make one incompatible with someone who hasn't sinned at all. In fact, I question whether the latter really exists, anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 [quote name='Norseman82' post='1571913' date='Jun 15 2008, 08:03 PM']But isn't what is hapening here is that others are looking down on me over my expectation for a spouse?[/quote] I do commend you for having high standards, I really do. And perhaps part of the problem here is how difficult it can be to gauge tone over the internet. That being said, I do take some of your posts on this matter to be looking down on others' past mistakes, as you [i]seem [/i] (from what I've read in this thread) unwilling to forgive what may have been a 1-time mistake. I think these things really need to be examined on a case-by-case basis, instead. There are just too many variables otherwise, TBH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 [quote name='Norseman82' post='1571913' date='Jun 15 2008, 03:03 PM']But isn't what is hapening here is that others are looking down on me over my expectation for a spouse?[/quote] Maybe. I think there can be a common ground in this discussion. Your own expectations for your spouse should be respected. But you should also respect that not everyone has the same expectations, and it is not because they have lesser standards. You referred to compatibility, which I agree is important, but what determines compatibility will be different for each person. You have expectations for your spouse's past, which is fine for you. But others place the emphasis on the present, not the past. You both agree on the basic duty to forgive. But as you said, marriage is not only about forgiveness, but also about compatibility. There are some general guidelines for determining whether you are compatible with a potential spouse (e.g., will the spouse respect and support your faith). But there are also many personal factors that each individual must consider for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1571921' date='Jun 15 2008, 03:09 PM']That's ridiculous. So I suppose we should just neatly catorgize people into groups and tell them that they aren't compatible to marry outside their group?[/quote] That would make life a lot easier. [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1571921' date='Jun 15 2008, 03:09 PM']Who are you to define compatibility?[/quote] Does it take a PhD in math to know 2+2 = 4? [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1571921' date='Jun 15 2008, 03:09 PM']A virgin is just as much a sinner as a non-virgin. Both are sinners. There's some compatibility for you.[/quote] On the contrary. As somneone posted previously, some sins are more grievous than others. And the bible cordons off fornication in a special class by itself (it is in one of Paul's epistles). The temporal effect of fornication is that I would no longer be giving 100% of myself to my future spouse if that future spouse is someone else, thus cheating her if she is a virgin and giving me 100% She has earned better. Edited June 15, 2008 by Norseman82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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