The Cross

[Adeodatus]

i'm not sure how we can be forgiven if we don't ask for it. i thought the only unforgivable sin was the one we didn't confess.

Thanks phatcatholic! You're right. The only unforgivable sin is the one we refuse to repent for. But then I have this particular weird line:

"So forgiveness does not require repentance, but healing and being forgiven do require repentance."

I was trying to be economical with words, but I should have spelt this out in full. Imagine two people, the forgiver and the forgivee.

If the forgivee repents, the forgiver has two choices: to forgive or not to forgive.

If the forgivee does not repent, the forgiver still has two choices: to forgive or not to forgive.

So I'm trying to say that God (forgiver) has it in His power to forgive us (forgivees) whether we repent or not.

But here I want to make a distinction. God's forgiveness can be seen in two aspects: with respect to God, and with respect to us (or, if you prefer, subjectively and objectively). With respect to us, God forgives us when we repent. With respect to God Himself, God is always forgiving, because He is eternal. I was trying to say that because God is eternal, He doesn't change. Our repentace doesn't make Him change His mind and think, 'OK, I'll forgive them'. Rather His eternal will is 'I will forgive them'. But this eternal will is only actualised in us in time when we repent.

So with respect to God, God's forgiveness does not require our repentance. With respect to us, our being forgiven by God does require our repentance.

That's what I meant by that strange line.

I realise I've made people scratch their heads and wonder where I'm going with all this. It might help if I spell out the implications of this discussion:

1. When working within the context of Divine Revelation and our salvation history, Christ's death for us still cannot be said to be absolutely necessary. The most we can say is that it is "fitting" in God's plans. We can, with hindsight, see God's plan unfolding in the prophets' writings, but we still can't say that it had to happen. We can say that God willed to send the Son for us.

2. Even on this point, we can't say that God willed Christ's death in a positive sense. God cannot will what is evil, and the death of an innocent, THE Innocent One, is surely an evil. God sent His Son knowing we would kill Him, but God did not force us to kill Him. We killed Jesus by our sins, and we did this freely first of all in Adam, who sinned on behalf of all mankind, and second by our own proper sins.

3. Adam and Eve did not have to sin. If they hadn't sinned it is conceivable the world would look very different today. We have to say this otherwise we're implying that Adam and Eve had no real choice, and we're committed to the belief that our First Parents had a real choice, just as the New Adam and the New Eve had real, genuine choices when the New Adam died to save us, and He associated His mother, the New Eve, with Him in His one, unique, unrepeatable sacrifice upon the Cross.

4. God could have forgiven us in any way He chose. By saying this I mean that God is God (utterly free and mysterious and all-powerful), and that grace is grace (completely gratuitous and undeserved). A good way to summarise this belief is to say, 'God does not need me'. I think everyone should proclaim that little mantra from every rooftop: God does not need me.

And so the fact that I exist is proof of His love; the fact that He sent His Son to die for me is proof of His love; the fact that He gave me His Spirit to drink, the streams of living water that make me never thirst again, is proof that He loves me. He did not make me to be His toy or His pet. God does not need me. And this shows how much He really, really does LOVE me. And He wants me to love Him, not for His sake but for mine.

There's an old Catholic catchphrase they display at Benediction and Adoration, "Sitit sitiri"--"He thirsts to be thirsted after", or "He desires to be desired [by you]". God does not need me, but He wants me to want Him, He wants my happiness. He wants to shower me with His inexhaustible love.

In this way we can preserve the complete freedom of God, and heighten our understanding of the depths of His love. For me, everytime I meditate on 'God does not need me' I am moved to tears by the overwhelming love of God. God bless you all. Pax Christi vobiscum. Amen.

[phatcatholic]

thank you so much for this. i completely understand now. i am going to add this explanation to the entry on "salvation" so that others may benefit from it as well.

God Bless You,

phatcatholic

[Mary's Knight, La]

sheed in either Theology and Sanityor Theology for beginners raised the same point that God's act of forgiveness (e.g. objective forgiveness) could have taken any form our acceptance and application of it (subjective forgiveness) would still require repentance. He just points out how it is fitting for objective forgiveness to be accomplished in the way He chose