Deb Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 I have to live chastely so everyone else should have to also. That is all I have to say. Good night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1559292' date='Jun 5 2008, 05:50 AM']Marriage is both a natural and a supernatural reality, and that is why society has a duty to defend its moral character.[/quote] Amen, brother! [quote name='Madtown Sem.' post='1559297' date='Jun 5 2008, 06:51 AM']Civil law is derived from Natural Law, Natural law is derived from Divine Law, even if it doesn't seem like the three are directly connected. Ultimately it all follows from divine law. BUT even without using divine law as found in revelation, traditional marriage is easily defended. I doubt that any argument can be made that homosexual marriage is for the COMMON GOOD. That means the good of EVERYONE. Marriage between man and woman is consistent with the common good. By natural complementarity and begetting children, the [u]stable[/u] family unit is established, which is the building block of ANY society.[/quote] Amen, brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 [quote name='prose' post='1559672' date='Jun 5 2008, 12:03 PM']I am still curious to hear any responses to my previous post about this.[/quote] I think your post made some excellent points. If we decide that "marriage" must no longer consist of an exclusive union between a man and woman, it then can become basically whatever one wants it to mean. If we aren't to "exclude" the benefits of marriage to homosexual couples, then why exclude them to anyone else who wants them? Politically incorrect as it may be to say this, marriage has a unique and irreplaceable role in human society, and should be defended. The Pope has said that Catholics should politically support: "recognition and promotion of the natural structure of the family, as a union between a man and a woman based on marriage, [b]and its defense from attempts to make it juridically equivalent to radically different forms of union which in reality harm it and contribute to its destabilization, obscuring its particular character and its irreplaceable social role.[/b]" [url="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=6368"](Story here)[/url] I find it interesting that many of the so-called Catholic bleeding hearts who try to use the words of the Pope and the bishops to support their positions on things like capital punishment or welfare, blatantly disregard them on things like "gay marriage," instead babbling weakly about such things as "separation of church and state." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Here's the problem...those suffering from same-sex attraction have the same rights as anyone, in this case, to enter into marriage. However, marriage is an open-to-life union between a man and a woman. There's a difference between denying someone rights and changing the definitions of rights to suit certain individuals who aren't happy with the fact that they don't have the right to do as they wish. It is wrong to deny a man his rights. It is absolutely right to resist unnatural corruption of the definitions and understandings of rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishSalesian Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 [quote name='Raphael' post='1560553' date='Jun 5 2008, 11:35 PM']Here's the problem...those suffering from same-sex attraction have the same rights as anyone, in this case, to enter into marriage. However, marriage is an open-to-life union between a man and a woman. There's a difference between denying someone rights and changing the definitions of rights to suit certain individuals who aren't happy with the fact that they don't have the right to do as they wish. It is wrong to deny a man his rights. It is absolutely right to resist unnatural corruption of the definitions and understandings of rights.[/quote] Well said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prose Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Rick, I am curious in particular your response to my previous post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 [quote name='IrishSalesian' post='1560565' date='Jun 5 2008, 09:45 PM'] Well said![/quote] Ditto! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 [quote name='rckllnknny' post='1560354' date='Jun 5 2008, 06:34 PM']i kno. i already said i kno that. ok?? i kno that. but you dont listen to me tho. see topic called RICK if you havent already.[/quote] Dude, nothing against you personally, but try and spell a little better. Your posts are painful to read, which makes them all the more difficult to decipher, which is necessary because you tend to ramble a bit. you kind of got the whole shinobi disturber thing going on here, just letting you know that the more inflammatory your remarks, the less likely anyone will take you seriously. i learned my lesson about that a while ago, respect gets you a lot farther than accusations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1559931' date='Jun 5 2008, 04:12 PM']Catholics are obligated to oppose homosexual civil unions and must avoid cooperating with such laws, as much as they are able.[/quote] Oh. Well I never said anything in opposition to that so now I'm confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 [quote name='Socrates' post='1560517' date='Jun 5 2008, 10:12 PM']As Christians, we should indeed strive to make our laws in accord with Christian principles and morality, not opposed to them. And most of the American founding fathers would strongly [u][b]agree[/b][/u] with the notion that law should not reflect religious morality in any way.[/quote] Judging from the rest of your post, I think you mean "disagree" ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 [quote name='Raphael' post='1560553' date='Jun 5 2008, 10:35 PM']Here's the problem...those suffering from same-sex attraction have the same rights as anyone, in this case, to enter into marriage. However, marriage is an open-to-life union between a man and a woman. There's a difference between denying someone rights and changing the definitions of rights to suit certain individuals who aren't happy with the fact that they don't have the right to do as they wish. It is wrong to deny a man his rights. It is absolutely right to resist unnatural corruption of the definitions and understandings of rights.[/quote] Which btw your definition of marriage, rightly defined as it is, goes against civil marriage. There is nothing in civil marriage that requires an openness to life . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 (edited) Marriage, natural and sacramental, is by its very nature ordered to the procreation and education of offspring. That said, the State, by passing laws to regulate the civil effects of marriage, must conform its legislation to the natural moral law and – in the case of a Christian country – to the fulfillment and protection of the sacramental character of marriage. No law may ever contradict the natural moral law, which is the manifestation of the immutable divine law in creation. Edited June 6, 2008 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 (edited) The State does not create marriage; instead, marriage is a natural institution created by God, which is antecedent to the State and which possesses certain unchanging characteristics that the State is required to legally recognize and protect. As a consequence, any law passed by the State that tries to equate a relationship that is contrary to human nature with the natural and supernatural institution of marriage is by definition an abuse, and no one – Catholic or non-Catholic – can legitimately support that type of legislation because it is contrary to right reason. Edited June 6, 2008 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1560816' date='Jun 6 2008, 06:36 AM']Oh. Well I never said anything in opposition to that so now I'm confused.[/quote] Did someone imply that you had? I've lost track of the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1560874' date='Jun 6 2008, 09:36 AM']The State does not create marriage; instead, marriage is a natural institution created by God, which is antecedent to the State and which possesses certain unchanging characteristics that the State is required to legally recognize and protect. As a consequence, any law passed by the State that tries to equate a relationship that is contrary to human nature with the natural and supernatural institution of marriage is by definition an abuse, and no one – Catholic or non-Catholic – can legitimately support that type of legislation because it is contrary to right reason.[/quote] Please demonstrate where the state recognizes God as the creator of the marriage in a civil ceremony. Or where a civil ceremony requires anyone to be open to life? A judge will say "By the power invested in my by the state of... I now pronounce you man and wife" and there is never a requirement for the contract to be permanent or that the couple be open to children Civil marriage is a contract that does not abide by natural law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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