Death Penalty

[Alycin]

good post.

[kujo]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1561387' date='Jun 6 2008, 07:07 PM']

good post.

[/quote]

[Winchester]

Not out of any rudeness, I'm removing myself from this topic, into which I am perennially sucked. It never comes off good and I don't, in my experience, change any minds. I reckon it'll be ruder to keep on keeping on.

[Alycin]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1561519' date='Jun 6 2008, 08:15 PM']Not out of any rudeness, I'm removing myself from this topic, into which I am perennially sucked. It never comes off good and I don't, in my experience, change any minds. I reckon it'll be ruder to keep on keeping on.[/quote]

Thanks for lettin' us know.

[kujo]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1561519' date='Jun 6 2008, 09:15 PM']Not out of any rudeness, I'm removing myself from this topic, into which I am perennially sucked. It never comes off good and I don't, in my experience, change any minds. I reckon it'll be ruder to keep on keeping on.[/quote]

I haven't found you rude at all.

EDIT: After re-reading the thread, and consulting with a few people....you were indeed rude. And I'm glad you're backing out...

Edited June 7, 2008 by kujo

[iggyjoan]

I would think no, because killing someone who killed somebody is not a good way to show that killing somebody is wrong.

They should just go to jail for a very very long time.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1560943' date='Jun 6 2008, 10:11 AM'][/color]
You sidestepped my question, so I'll break it down into simpler yes-or-no questions.

1) Do you believe that the catechism is wrong in saying that the death penalty is virtually unnecessary now that we have the means to restrain criminals without taking their lives?

2) Do you disagree with JPII that the death penalty is now cruel and unusual because of the reasons stated in question one?[/quote]
1) The Church affirms, even in the modern catechism, that capital punishment is permisable: [quote]Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.[/quote]

[quote]Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."[/quote]
"Rare," or "[i]practically[/i] nonexistent" are not the same thing as actually nonexistent, and how effective the prison system is in protecting the innocent is a prudential judgment, rather than a matter of dogma, and is thus not infallible.

Winchester and others have given good arguments as to why they do not in fact completely protect the innocent.

2) I do not regard more humane methods of execution as "cruel and unusual." It can certainly be argued that a life in solitary confinement is even more cruel. G.K. Chesterton had some good words to this effect, which I'll look up if I find time. The reality is that prison life can be quite degrading.

In any case, arguing, as some do, that capital punishment is intrinsically wrong and at the same level morally as abortion and euthanasia is flat wrong and contrary to Church teaching. (It is often used to justify voting for pro-abort pols).

I believe Cardinal Ratzinger knew what he was talking about when he made the statement that there may be a legitimate diversity of opinion regarding applying the death penalty - more so than those who (contrary to his statement) place it on the same level as abortion and euthanasia.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1561186' date='Jun 6 2008, 01:51 PM']The [url="http://www.slate.com/id/1007001/"]most recent article[/url] I could find said that about one half of 1% of prisoners escape.[/quote]
That's one in every 200 prisoners - given the total prison population, not a totally negligible number.

[Deb]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1561083' date='Jun 6 2008, 01:08 PM']I don't agree with capital punishment in cases where innocent are put to death, or racism was the motivation in convicting the criminal. I only agree with it in cases where there is no question about the conviction, about the murderer, about the crimes. In the example of McDuff, I saw it is absolutely necessary. Texas killed McDuff. McDuff can no longer kill. We are safe from him. I see it as a case of self-defense.

I used to work in law-enforcement. One of my co-workers, a warrants officer, had two beautfiul daughters. One night, while she was out, a sick, perverted neighbor broke into their house. He tried to rape the 14 year old, but she put up a fight, and was cut open and gutted like a fish. When my friend, the warrants officer arrived at her house, everything had been turned upside down, and there was blood everywhere. She found her daughter's mutilated body. Why was it okay for her daughter to get murdered so mercilessly and then it's WRONG to punish the murderer??? When murder hits home, I don't care what anybody else says. I think God understands how the victims families feel. This guy went up for parole in 2001. He was let out of prison. Can you believe it? He's out to do this very thing again!!! I think they should have put him to death, because I think it's pretty foolish to let a butcher like this out into society. I don't know if it deters murder, but it deters the convicted murderer! They will NEVER KILL again! They will NEVER DESTROY families again! And maybe...just maybe...God uses capital punishment to punish these monsters! We don't know, do we???[/quote]

I guess you can assume that God wants us to sit in judgement and wants us to murder also. I had a good friend, her boyfriend blew her brains out. My brother's girlfriend was beaten to death by some guy. My cousin was hit by a car driven by a drunk and tossed down a ravine and died. So guess what, I do know about crime hitting close to home.

Those people in my life live on in my memories and my prayers. The people who killed them, their lives and souls are in the hands of God, not mine and I am perfectly fine with that.

I don't think anyone mentioned the murdered not being punished. Life in a 6x10 cell is a pretty horrifying punishment. Spend some time in one and you will find out how slowly time passes.

I don't believe for a minute that Jesus Christ is sitting back watching us kill people, cuz we can, and thinking it is a great thing nor appreciating us using his teachings as a basis for it. I think he was a lot more about forgiveness and possible redemption for sinners.

Let's see, was that Saul who assisted with the stoning death of St. Stephen? How many other deaths was he responsible for. Christ used him and he became one of our greatest Apostles and Saints. Tell me how that adds up to your, he's a murder, lets snuff him way of looking at things?

Edited June 9, 2008 by Deb

[StColette]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1563961' date='Jun 8 2008, 10:40 PM']1) The Church affirms, even in the modern catechism, that capital punishment is permisable:
"Rare," or "[i]practically[/i] nonexistent" are not the same thing as actually nonexistent, and how effective the prison system is in protecting the innocent is a prudential judgment, rather than a matter of dogma, and is thus not infallible.[/quote]

I must agree here. The Catechism does not say that the use of capital punishment is not existent but rather that it is "practically" nonexistent. We must remove ourselves from our countries facilities and think of those facilities in say 3rd world countries. In most cases they do not have the means to keep these criminals from doing harm to others such as inmates or guards and the possibility of their escape is much higher than that of the rate in the US

[quote]It can certainly be argued that a life in solitary confinement is even more cruel. G.K. Chesterton had some good words to this effect, which I'll look up if I find time. The reality is that prison life can be quite degrading.[/quote]

I agree, life in solitary confinement is very cruel.

[quote]In any case, arguing, as some do, that capital punishment is intrinsically wrong and at the same level morally as abortion and euthanasia is flat wrong and contrary to Church teaching. (It is often used to justify voting for pro-abort pols).[/quote]

Agreed, I would not place abortion, euthanasia, and capital punishment upon the same level, especially since the Church does allow the state to make the decision about capital punishment and that in certain cases it might be the only answer. The Church does not give such cases to abortion and euthanasia. Any practice of abortion or euthanasia no matter the circumstance is always wrong, the case of capital punishment is not so. I think if it (captial punishment) is abused, which it can be in my opinion, then I would say that could be gravely wrong.

[Alycin]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1563992' date='Jun 8 2008, 10:48 PM']That's one in every 200 prisoners - given the total prison population, not a totally negligible number.[/quote]


I already broke this down and did the math in a previous post.

[Alycin]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1561240' date='Jun 6 2008, 03:45 PM']There are 2,299,116 prisoners in prison right now. Only half of those prisoners are in prison for violent crimes. That would mean that even less of a percentage would be in for homicide, though I couldn't find that percentage. HOWEVER, the overall escape rate is one half of one percent IF (and that's a big if) the rate has stayed the same, and not followed the trend of decline. I couldn't find a statistic that says whether the escapees were all murderers, but I find that unlikely. So you're looking at a total number of escapees to be about 11 and a half thousand. That is not a small number, but nor is it a large number in the scheme of things, especially considering that it's probably far fewer than the total number of 11.5 thousand which are actually murderers, much less serial killers.

And as I've already stated before, the majority of the escapes were due to [size=4]negligence or insufficient supervision[/size].[/quote]


I still maintain that there is no reason, NONE, for the death penalty to be used in America. Third world countries--maybe, if that's their last resort. However, we don't use it as a last resort, and that is wrong, according to the catechism.

[KnightofChrist]

One may be individually opposed to capital punishment, but they can not say it is objectively wrong. Two thousand years of Catholic Tradition supports capital punishment as an act of justice. And this teaching is universal in time and location.

Capital punishment is a punishment which is proportionate for certain heinous acts, justice must be proportionate to the crime. Therefor Traditional and Universal Catholic teaching supports the use capital punishment, in all nations of all times.

[Didymus]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1561376' date='Jun 6 2008, 05:55 PM']You are right that support for the death penalty is mostly rooted in emotional response. When hot stuff says there is no logical reason to support the death penalty he gets pretty close, although I wouldn't go so far as to say "NO logical" reason. I think that we who oppose the DP have a major blind spot here. We have a huge pile of facts about capital punishment. The statistics show that the death penalty is not a deterrent. The statistics show that innocent people have been sentenced. The statistics show that poor people and minorities are more likely to be sentenced. And so on.

What we miss is that the PRO-death penalty argument is not really about facts and figures, it is about hearts and souls. What it comes down to is that a wound has been made in a family so deep and so painful that some people feel that execution is the only response that would come even close to being adequate. When Catholics and others defend the death penalty, usually their real intention (perhaps unconscious) is to "defend" the family of the victim and others who are experiencing terrible hurt as a result of violent crime. Over-turning a death sentence or protesting an execution can feel like an attack on the victim, a way of saying that the deceased was not "worth" resorting to this kind of punishment, or a minimization of the family's pain.

Of course people who argue against the death penalty don't mean to attack any one. But instead of recognizing this emotional reality we hit them with another stack of figures about deterrence. The key to converting people to a more fully pro-life position on the DP is to recognize where they are coming from and work from there. We need to show victims that we recognize the agony of losing someone to violence, and that we are not "choosing sides" against them. It is not sinful for them to be angry, to feel lost or hopeless, or to experience a desire for revenge. These are all normal emotions. We have to prove by our words and by our actions that the true way to "defend" victims and families is to help make them whole by leading them down the path of forgiveness.[/quote]

Good Point! We need to show compassion with this pro-life issue just as we need to show compassion as pro-lifers on the issue of abortion and the women who find themselves with an unexpected pregnancy.

[Didymus]

I believe that we are all not as opposed as one would assume.

e.g. how much different are these two statements?

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1565287' date='Jun 9 2008, 07:28 PM']One may be individually opposed to capital punishment, but they can not say it is objectively wrong.[/quote]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1565189' date='Jun 9 2008, 05:53 PM']I still maintain that there is no reason, NONE, for the death penalty to be used in America. Third world countries--maybe, if that's their last resort.[/quote]

Alycin here outlines my own view on the death penalty, which incorporates the possibility of a society that may need to use the death penalty as a last resort; meaning - it is not objectively and intrinsically evil.