Alycin Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1565827' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:31 PM']Not quite, it is actual left to the judgment of the state. The modern prison system does not effect the states right to punish capital crimes. Rarity also does not effect capital punishment, since it is judged on the actual crime(s) committed by a person and not how often that type of crime is committed in society.[/quote] That Catechism disagrees, and that trumps your opinion, are we gonna go round in circles all night long? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Alycin' post='1565823' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:29 PM']I'd be careful with your words if I were you... just sayin'.[/quote] I choose my words quite carefully. That's how I got my theology degree. To elevate a judgment of the prudential order to the level of dogma is heretical. Edited June 10, 2008 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1565827' date='Jun 10 2008, 12:31 AM']Not quite, it is actual left to the judgment of the state. The modern prison system does not effect the states right to punish capital crimes. Rarity also does not effect capital punishment, since it is judged on the actual crime(s) committed by a person and not how often that type of crime is committed in society.[/quote] You misunderstand my meaning, dude. I view the death penalty as a safeguard for society, to keep [i]us[/i] safe from [i]them[/i]. The modern prison system is such that felons don't escape very often, which is why our safety isn't necessarily achieved solely through capital punishment. That's why it should be used in the rare cases where the prisoner presents a significant risk to society, even while imprisoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565830' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:32 PM']To elevate a judgment of the prudential order to the level of dogma is heretical.[/quote] No one has done so...so your random and irrelevant statement doesn't really seem to exhibit your careful choosing of words to me! But you have a theology degree so you must be right and everyone else, including the Pope, must be wrong. Edited June 10, 2008 by Alycin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1565829' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:32 PM']That Catechism disagrees, and that trumps your opinion, are we gonna go round in circles all night long?[/quote] No, it doesn't trump anyone's opinion. Because whether or not penal systems today are better than in the past is not a dogmatic truth. The State, by divine revelation and the natural law, has the power of the sword, and no man, not even a pope, can alter divine revelation or the immutable natural law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565830' date='Jun 10 2008, 12:32 AM']I choose my words quite carefully. That's how I got my theology degree. To elevate a judgment of the prudential order to the level of dogma is heretical.[/quote] So, believing the CCC over, say, [b]YOU[/b], would be heretical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1565829' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:32 PM']That Catechism disagrees, and that trumps your opinion, are we gonna go round in circles all night long?[/quote] Prudential judgment does not trump official Apostolic and Traditional teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus te Amat Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 The Pope is infallible in matters of Faith and Morals. I'm pretty sure that the Death Penalty is a Moral matter. Seems clear cut to me. St. Augustine and St. Thomas wrote in a time before High profile security prisons, where the conditions would be near or equal to those found in third world Countries... where the death penalty would be accepted under the teachings of JPII and the Catechism. "Thou shalt not kill" means exactly what it says. Even though the death penalty is needed in some instances, killing should not occur unless necessary. Or are you telling me that there WEREN'T six cities of refuge in the Old Testament? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1565838' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:35 PM']No one has done so...so your random and irrelevant statement doesn't really seem to exhibit your careful choosing of words to me! But you have a theology degree so you must be right and everyone else, including the Pope, must be wrong. [/quote] I hold that Pope John Paul II's opinion on penal systems today is utter nonsense. For one thing different countries have different standards, and to compare a prison in France to a prison on Uganda is complete foolishness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565840' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:36 PM']No, it doesn't trump anyone's opinion. Because whether or not penal systems today are better than in the past is not a dogmatic truth. The State, by divine revelation and the natural law, has the power of the sword, and no man, not even a pope, can alter divine revelation or the immutable natural law.[/quote] Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1565844' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:36 PM']Prudential judgment does not trump official Apostolic and Traditional teaching.[/quote] Your interpretation of A&T teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565848' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:38 PM']For one thing different countries have different standards, and to compare a prison in France to a prison on Uganda is complete foolishness.[/quote] I already covered this, where ya been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Deus_te_Amat' post='1565845' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:36 PM']"Thou shalt not kill"[/quote] It is important to remember that the Hebrew and Greek texts of scripture actually say, "You shall not murder," and not, "You shall not kill." There is a big difference between killing, which may be necessary, and murder, which is never licit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Deus_te_Amat' post='1565845' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:36 PM']The Pope is infallible in matters of Faith and Morals. I'm pretty sure that the Death Penalty is a Moral matter. Seems clear cut to me. St. Augustine and St. Thomas wrote in a time before High profile security prisons, where the conditions would be near or equal to those found in third world Countries... where the death penalty would be accepted under the teachings of JPII and the Catechism. "Thou shalt not kill" means exactly what it says. Even though the death penalty is needed in some instances, killing should not occur unless necessary. Or are you telling me that there WEREN'T six cities of refuge in the Old Testament?[/quote] Don't you wish you knew better than the Pope, too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565848' date='Jun 10 2008, 12:38 AM']I hold that Pope John Paul II's opinion on penal systems today is utter nonsense. For one thing different countries have different standards, and to compare a prison in France to a prison on Uganda is complete foolishness.[/quote] Are you actually incabable of realizing that we ARE AGREEING THE THERE ARE CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE IT WILL BE NECESSARY TO KEEP SOCIETY SAFE???!?!??! MUST I SHOUT IT??!?!?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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