Death Penalty

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1565783' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:15 PM']I don't think you understand what I am arguing. I am not saying that the death penalty is wrong, evil, or should not be used at all, I am saying that it should be used exactly in alignment with what the catechism says.

And I will accept the CCC over your opinion any day.

Sorry. [/quote]
Yes, I understand that that is your position, but I disagree with you this issue.

The catechism quotes a prudential judgment of the pope, which cannot bind anyone in conscience. Moreover, the pope's prudential judgment on restricting the death penalty is contrary to divine revelation and the natural moral law, so I must respectfully disagree with Pope John Paul II on this issue.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Apotheoun

[kujo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565792' date='Jun 10 2008, 12:17 AM']Yes, I understand that that is your position, but I disagree with you this issue.[/quote]

We believe what the Catechism teaches.

[Alycin]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565792' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:17 PM']Yes, I understand that that is your position, but I disagree with you this issue.[/quote]

That's fine, but my position is directly in line with the CCC so I think I'm safe.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='kujo' post='1565757' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:07 PM']Is it just me, or are we agreeing here? The CCC says that it is okay only in select circumstances, and you are all saying that Church tradition says that the state has the authority to do it.[/quote]

[u]Every[/u] state, according to official and traditional Catholic teaching has the right to punish murders and dispense justice equal to the crime committed. The punishment must be proportionate to the crime. By the act of murder an murderer by his own fault, has dispossessed himself of the right to live.

[kujo]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1565798' date='Jun 10 2008, 12:19 AM']That's fine, but my position is directly in line with the CCC so I think I'm safe. [/quote]

[img]http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/photo/photogallery/season_2003/0911/03.jpg[/img]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1565798' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:19 PM']That's fine, but my position is directly in line with the CCC so I think I'm safe. [/quote]
Whether the death penalty should be rarely used or not is a prudential judgment, which cannot be made into a binding dogmatic fact, and to blindly follow it is foolhardy at best, and heretical at worst.

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1565801' date='Jun 10 2008, 12:20 AM'][u]Every[/u] state, according to official and traditional Catholic teaching has the right to punish murders and dispense justice equal to the crime committed. The punishment must be proportionate to the crime. By the act of murder an murderer by his own fault, has dispossessed himself of the right to live.[/quote]

Okay. But the Church ALSO teaches that the death penalty should only be used in rare circumstance because it is virtually unnecessary given the modern prison system and such.

[Alycin]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1565801' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:20 PM'][u]Every[/u] state, according to official and traditional Catholic teaching has the right to punish murders and dispense justice equal to the crime committed. The punishment must be proportionate to the crime. By the act of murder an murderer by his own fault, has dispossessed himself of the right to live.[/quote]


Why are you trying to talk me OUT of believing what the CATECHISM and the late POPE have to say on the matter?!!?

Seriously... what's your problem? I am in no way doing anything at all against the Church so I don't know why you're trying so hard...

[kujo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565804' date='Jun 10 2008, 12:20 AM']Whether the death penalty should be rarely used or not is a prudential judgment, which cannot be made into a binding dogmatic fact, and to blindly follow it is foolhardy at best, and heretical at worst.[/quote]

Wait....following the CCC could be heretical?

Wow....I'd LOVE to read the explanation of this one.

[Alycin]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565804' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:20 PM']Whether the death penalty should be rarely used or not is a prudential judgment, which cannot be made into a binding dogmatic fact, and to blindly follow it is foolhardy at best, and heretical at worst.[/quote]


And here I thought that opposing church teaching was heretical, not the other way around.

[Apotheoun]

As I have posted before:

[quote][size=3]The prudential judgment found in the Catechism (no. 2267) has no binding force whatsoever upon the Christian faithful, and the decision about when to apply the death penalty remains in the hands of the proper civil authorities. Moreover, the citing of a prudential judgment of a Pope, or of any other ecclesiastical official, within a later Church document (including a Catechism) does not then alter the nature of the original judgment; in other words, the original opinion remains a judgment of the prudential order, and cannot become something else. Consequently, a Catholic remains free to decide for himself, on a case by case basis, when the death penalty should be applied, regardless of the prudential judgment of the Pope or of any other Church official.

Moreover, to hold that a prudential judgment of the Pope has binding force on the conscience of the Christian faithful destroys the infallible authority of the Magisterium, because Popes in the past have made, and no doubt will continue to make, improper judgments in the prudential order (including Pope Honorius, who was condemned by an ecumenical council for making precisely that type of error, i.e., an error of the prudential order).

That being said, Catholic doctrine has universally accepted that there are three principles to be taken into account by the civil authorities in maintaining justice:

(1) The rehabilitation of the criminal is to be sought when this is possible.
(2) Retributive justice, that is, the restoration of the social order by the punishment of the malefactor with a punishment that is commensurate with the crime, including in some cases the execution of the criminal, is to be enacted.
(3) The defense of the common good of society by rendering the criminal harmless, and this principle also includes the possible execution of the malefactor.

These three principles are a part of the common teaching of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium and as such they hold the status of a doctrine de fide tenenda. Thus it follows that to deny one of the principles out right, would be to fall into theological error. Now certainly, depending upon the particular case, one or another of the principles may have greater weight, but that is to be determined by the proper civil authorities, to whom the defense of the common good has been entrusted.

Therefore, taking into account the Catholic doctrine of the medicinal and retributive nature of justice, Catholics remain free to debate the application of the death penalty in particular cases, and this was reaffirmed by Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict) in a letter to the bishops of the United States back in June of 2004. Thus, no Catholic may claim for the prudential judgment of the Pope, which is contained in Evangelium Vitae, or the reiteration of that prudential judgment in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, a binding force upon the Christian faithful.

Moreover, it must always be borne in mind that the Pope can err in prudential matters, and that the extreme opinion that anything said by the Pope was automatically binding was condemned at the First Vatican Council. In fact Vatican I clearly delimited the authority of the Pope in a very specific sense, i.e., limiting his binding power to matters of faith and morals, and intentionally excluding matters of a prudential nature. As Dr. Mirus has pointed out about this very issue: "It is, I think, unfortunate that this prudential judgment [i.e., concerning the death penalty] was added to the Catechism. No matter how valuable it may be, the protection of the Holy Spirit does not apply to it, nor can such judgments ever be part of the Church’s Magisterium. The Church has no special gift for discerning the capabilities of the modern age in comparison with past ages, the quality of the world’s penitentiaries, or —to return to the main point—what is necessary for the protection of the public safety. For this reason, her opinions on this subject do not properly belong in catechisms."

To elevate a judgment of a prudential nature to a binding level of authority is contrary to Catholic doctrine, and will ultimately damage the faith of the Church and expose her to attacks by those who hold her faith to be in vain. To say that prudential judgments are binding, is to say that the erroneous and condemned prudential judgments of Pope Honorius were binding on the Christian faithful, which means that the Pope was not merely mistaken about a matter that did not touch upon the faith, but that he was an open heretic. Now I simply refuse to believe that the Popes of the past (or the present) have ever fallen into heresy, but if those who hold that a prudential judgment is binding on the Christian faithful are correct, it follows that some Popes have fallen into heresy, and consequently the Church herself has apostatized from the faith. Now as I said above, I simply refuse to believe that to be the case.

Let me be as clear about this as I possibly can: If tomorrow Pope Benedict himself came out and said that the comments the Catechism in paragraph number 2267 are the most prudent course of action in death penalty cases, no Catholic would be required to agree with him, and to say that the Christian faithful would be bound by such a prudential judgment is, quite frankly, contrary to Catholic doctrine. Clearly, a man is free to agree with the Pope on a prudential matter if he wishes, but no one can ever require a Catholic to accept a prudential judgment as binding, nor can he require others to hold that a prudential opinion contained in a Church document is necessarily the best possible course of action in a given situation.[/size][/quote]

[Alycin]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565813' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:25 PM']As I have posted before:[/quote]


And it's okay if someone does agree with the pope. So why are you trying to tell me I'm wrong in doing so? It's wrong for me to believe that the Pope knows better than me? Seriously?

lol.

[kujo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565813' date='Jun 10 2008, 12:25 AM']As I have posted before:[/quote]

Okay. I still agree with Pope John Paul II and the CCC.

[Alycin]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565792' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:17 PM']Yes, I understand that that is your position, but I disagree with you this issue.

The catechism quotes a prudential judgment of the pope, which cannot bind anyone in conscience. Moreover, the pope's prudential judgment on restricting the death penalty is contrary to divine revelation and the natural moral law, so I must respectfully disagree with Pope John Paul II on this issue.[/quote]


[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565804' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:20 PM']Whether the death penalty should be rarely used or not is a prudential judgment, which cannot be made into a binding dogmatic fact, and to blindly follow it is foolhardy at best, and [size=5]heretical[/size] at worst.[/quote]


I'd be careful with your words if I were you... just sayin'.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='kujo' post='1565806' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:22 PM']Okay. But the Church ALSO teaches that the death penalty should only be used in rare circumstance because it is virtually unnecessary given the modern prison system and such.[/quote]

Not quite, it is actual left to the judgment of the state. The modern prison system does not effect the states right to punish capital crimes. Rarity also does not effect capital punishment, since it is judged on the actual crime(s) committed by a person and not how often that type of crime is committed in society.