Death Penalty

[rckllnknny]

?

[StColette]

CCC

Capital Punishment

2266 The State's effort to contain the spread of behaviors injurious to human rights and the fundamental rules of civil coexistence corresponds to the requirement of watching over the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime. The primary scope of the penalty is to redress the disorder caused by the offense. When his punishment is voluntarily accepted by the offender, it takes on the value of expiation. Moreover, punishment, in addition to preserving public order and the safety of persons, has a medicinal scope: as far as possible it should contribute to the correction of the offender.[67]

2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.

"If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

"Today, in fact, given the means at the State's disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today ... are very rare, if not practically non-existent.' [68]

I go with the Church's opinion, that only under rare circumstances where the criminal is too much a danger to other inmates even in the best of facilities, or if in poorer countries where the facilities are very lacking and thus can result in the inmate escaping the prison and hurting others or possibly causing harm to his fellow inmates. Only under those types of situation would I agree with capital punishment.

[rckllnknny]

[quote name='StColette' post='1557408' date='Jun 4 2008, 12:40 PM']CCC

Capital Punishment

2266 The State's effort to contain the spread of behaviors injurious to human rights and the fundamental rules of civil coexistence corresponds to the requirement of watching over the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime. The primary scope of the penalty is to redress the disorder caused by the offense. When his punishment is voluntarily accepted by the offender, it takes on the value of expiation. Moreover, punishment, in addition to preserving public order and the safety of persons, has a medicinal scope: as far as possible it should contribute to the correction of the offender.[67]

2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.

"If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

"Today, in fact, given the means at the State's disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today ... are very rare, if not practically non-existent.' [68][/quote]

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='rckllnknny' post='1557377' date='Jun 4 2008, 11:30 AM']?[/quote]

If the state decides that the crime fits, absolutely.

[rckllnknny]

but we would literally be doing the same thing that was illegal for them. for some reason when they commit murder they are hanged for it. and as long as stand on the end that is hanging him i can get away with it. abortion is murder. murder is murder. but capital pusnishment is okay??
wasnt it legal in south carolina to own slaves???

[Alycin]

[quote name='StColette' post='1557408' date='Jun 4 2008, 12:40 PM']CCC


"If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

"Today, in fact, given the means at the State's disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today ...[size=4] are very rare, if not practically non-existent.[/size]' [68][/quote]

[rckllnknny]

im not gonna let that get taken out of context. i meant if the state says its okay..as in when they said slavery it was okay. but now its not?? thats not vry smart. i dont think slavery was ever okay. i obey God not minnesota.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='rckllnknny' post='1557439' date='Jun 4 2008, 11:48 AM']but we would literally be doing the same thing that was illegal for them. for some reason when they commit murder they are hanged for it. and as long as stand on the end that is hanging him i can get away with it. abortion is murder. murder is murder. but capital pusnishment is okay??[/quote]

It's all about the complicity of the action. Abortion is the murder of a fully innocent baby (aside from having original sin). It is not okay to kill innocent victims. A murderer loses (according to a number of pre-vat Catholic sources) his right to life by taking the life of another. He is no longer an innocent life. Of course we are all sinners, so in that sense are not innocent, but in particular reference to murderers when one takes a life he loses the right to keep his own. I would argue that the death penalty also applies to other crimes to, but this is just the clearest example.

[quote name='rckllnknny' post='1557439' date='Jun 4 2008, 11:48 AM']wasnt it legal in south carolina to own slaves???[/quote]

It used to be legal in lot's of places to own slaves. Doesn't make it right. Not the same with the death penalty. The Church gives the state moral permission to put a criminal to death. The Church has never condoned slavery.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='rckllnknny' post='1557452' date='Jun 4 2008, 11:52 AM']im not gonna let that get taken out of context. i meant if the state says its okay..as in when they said slavery it was okay. but now its not?? thats not vry smart. i dont think slavery was ever okay. i obey God not minnesota.[/quote]

slavery never was okay and never will be. but comparing it to the death penalty which the Church allows (or at least used to ) is not a fair equation, because the Church permits the death penalty but has never permitted slavery.

[StColette]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1557459' date='Jun 4 2008, 12:54 PM']The Church gives the state moral permission to put a criminal to death.[/quote]

Only when the means to keep the criminal from harming others cannot be accomplished or if the state/nation lacks the facilities to do so.

[rckllnknny]

okay alyc i dont want o take your qoute out of context.. but was that just assuming that if someone did a horrendous crime they would prolly not reconcile to God anyway?? so we mite as well give them death instead of life???
lmao r u kidding??

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='StColette' post='1557466' date='Jun 4 2008, 11:55 AM']Only when the means to keep the criminal from harming others cannot be accomplished or if the state/nation lacks the facilities to do so.[/quote]

some authors have made this stipulation. Not all of them. It is definitely not conclusive that this is the overriding factor. A number of theologians allow for the death penalty simply as a punishment. I think both aspects need to be considered, but in our culture today the punishment factor of the death penalty is often ignored.

[rckllnknny]

okay where in the bible does it say kill people. in psalms or proverbs???

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='rckllnknny' post='1557474' date='Jun 4 2008, 11:57 AM']okay where in the bible does it say kill people. in psalms or proverbs???[/quote]

In the old testament, in lots of places. I don't know where in the New Testament, doesn't really matter to me since I'm not restricted to following the Bible alone.

[StColette]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1557473' date='Jun 4 2008, 12:57 PM']some authors have made this stipulation. Not all of them. It is definitely not conclusive that this is the overriding factor. A number of theologians allow for the death penalty simply as a punishment. I think both aspects need to be considered, but in our culture today the punishment factor of the death penalty is often ignored.[/quote]

I'm going with the Catechism you can go with whoever you want lol